Swift Retribution

[Ronark]

I never really trust arguments grounded in, essentially, "every other class has x but we only have y."

To me, the argument is this:

There are many situations in which I'd spec out of Swift Retribution if I had options. We almost always have one or more moonkins who WILL have the 3% haste because of the additional benefit it brings them (30% of spirit as spell power). In such a situation, there's no reason for me to have it. However, I keep it because I have nothing else to get with those points.

That is to say, in most situations it's a useless talent to both me and the raid.

(NOTE: I'm obviously talking about 25 man raids here. Given options, I'd choose whether or not to take it for 10 man content).

Yes thats the point- If you have the buff covered you cannot justify taking it yourself since it is useless, other than putting the points somewhere else: Because almost anything else that you can those points in is worse than 3% haste.

[belfpala]

Yes thats the point- If you have the buff covered you cannot justify taking it yourself since it is useless, other than putting the points somewhere else: Because almost anything else that you can those points in is worse than 3% haste.

No other option helps my DPS. In the situation I outlined, not even the Swift Retribution helps my DPS, because the Moonkin(s) are providing it anyway.

My options are PVP talents in Ret or utility talents in Prot, neither of which really ever come into play in raids (where this discussion is focused).

Here's my ret build minus Swift Retribution:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...big7YMo,,10554

What should I take that will actually help me raid?

[DaGhostDS]

No other option helps my DPS. In the situation I outlined, not even the Swift Retribution helps my DPS, because the Moonkin(s) are providing it anyway.

My options are PVP talents in Ret or utility talents in Prot, neither of which really ever come into play in raids (where this discussion is focused).

Here's my ret build minus Swift Retribution:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...big7YMo,,10554

What should I take that will actually help me raid?

3 points in divine intellect!
(im gonna quote myself and Ronark on that one :P)

rofl..
350 mana if i remember right, fully buffed :

But that's 1.458 mana per 5 seconds!!! :>

and those numbers are with 5 points in it lol

[belfpala]

3 points in divine intellect!

lol. I remember having an extended argument before 3.2 hit, trying to convince certain paladins that Divine Intellect is terrible for ret. At least that much is still true.

[Ronark]

Exorcism can no longer miss? when did this happen?

EDIT: Haven't played since after the arrival of 3.1. There's always been that possibility of a spell missing if you fight a (??)boss. I said this because i had the unfortunate luck of having many exorcisms miss on Yogg's brain.

Either way, i'd still launch an exorcism first, just to get that on the cooldown and worry about playing whack-a-mole with the rest of my skills.

There is a 1% chance to miss on (??) Raid bosses, yes: But the other 99% of the time you crit.

[Sartecho]

Here's my ret build minus Swift Retribution:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...big7YMo,,10554

What should I take that will actually help me raid?

Vindication is still a good talent. Your warriors will love you if they don't have to deal with keeping Demo Shout up.

[rafein]

You're missing the point- its that other classes have an additional bonus on top of that 3% haste or whatever their specific buff is, where we don't.

I do understand that, but in the overall scheme of things, Ret is pretty good overall in it's tree. If they do give us an additional effect, it would be small. Something like

Swift Retribution - Your aura's Increase you party/raids haste by 1/2/3%, and your autoattacks can ignore 2/4/6% of your opponents armor.

[Evilution]

There is a 1% chance to miss on (??) Raid bosses, yes: But the other 99% of the time you crit.

Rets will still have a few % miss with spells on bosses, you need 17% hit with spells to reach
100% hitrate with Exo/HoW, and having 8% melee-hit will net you 10% spellhit, leaving 4% miss
after Misery/Improved Faerie Fire is on the boss, 3% if you are/have a Draenei near ya.

OT, exo is juicy on undead targets no doubt

[Ronark]

Rets will still have a few % miss with spells on bosses, you need 17% hit with spells to reach
100% hitrate with Exo/HoW, and having 8% melee-hit will net you 10% spellhit, leaving 4% miss
after Misery/Improved Faerie Fire is on the boss, 3% if you are/have a Draenei near ya.

OT, exo is juicy on undead targets no doubt

Exorcism scales off of Spell hit, yes; But when it is an automatic crit, it pushes Resist and Miss off the "Hit Table".

[Nillo]

But when it is an automatic crit, it pushes Resist and Miss off the "Hit Table".

Spell use a 2 roll system afaik -> spell miss can't be pushed off the table. (and I had a lot of exorcism misses against Valkyr's last week)

[Ronark]

Spell use a 2 roll system afaik -> spell miss can't be pushed off the table. (and I had a lot of exorcism misses against Valkyr's last week)

I'll look through WoWWiki and see if it has any info on the matter: I know that (as previously stated) you still retain a 1% spell m iss chance.

[belfpala]

Vindication is still a good talent. Your warriors will love you if they don't have to deal with keeping Demo Shout up.

That belongs in the "utility" category that I mentioned. It's a good talent, but not needed given the raid comp I usually play with. Our prot paladin is plenty good at keeping Vindication on multiple targets. If we didn't have a prot paladin, or he wasn't taking Vindication for some reason, I agree that Vindication would be the best choice.

[Evilution]

I'll look through WoWWiki and see if it has any info on the matter: I know that (as previously stated) you still retain a 1% spell m iss chance.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit

"With patch 3.0.2, spell hit is capped at 100%; with enough spell hit, it is possible to reach a state where it is impossible for your spells to miss."

[Ronark]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit

"With patch 3.0.2, spell hit is capped at 100%; with enough spell hit, it is possible to reach a state where it is impossible for your spells to miss."

That I knew: What I need to see is that, even in parameters in which Exorcism is 100% crit, how often will it miss.

[Evilution]

That I knew: What I need to see is that, even in parameters in which Exorcism is 100% crit, how often will it miss.

Then why the statement that i just quoted in my previous post? 99% is not 100%.

and to answer how often it will miss > 3 or 4% miss if you have 8% melee-hit, depending
on draenei racial being present or not.

Rets will still have a few % miss with spells on bosses, you need 17% hit with spells to reach
100% hitrate with Exo/HoW, and having 8% melee-hit will net you 10% spellhit, leaving 4% miss
after Misery/Improved Faerie Fire is on the boss, 3% if you are/have a Draenei near ya.

OT, exo is juicy on undead targets no doubt

[iktankniet]

That I knew: What I need to see is that, even in parameters in which Exorcism is 100% crit, how often will it miss.

crit rating is irrelevant to the possibility that exorcism misses its target.

i have 9% hit atm. with misery(+3%hit) this would be 12% hit, leaving a window of 5% miss chance on exorcism.

having that 17%hit will make you hit your target 100% of the time.

the same goes for the 1st tick of concecration.

just like Evilution said