Holy or Disc

[Sgt.Fatman]

hey i know theres plent of post about this topic but im wanting a specific responce.

i am going to be running almost everything with a bear tank, mostly heroics to start with then progress into raid content. what spec is best for early progression and for healing a bear tank please also post advised talent specs.

[G l o w y r m]

Which spec do you find more fun.

That's the best spec for you to choose.

They both work fine and they can both be used on any and every encounter in the game. People bash Discipline but they don't know what they are talking about. Also, healing meters do not mean anything for the most part, and are not a measure of what spec is better or what player is better.

[[-Spiritus-]]

If your going to be tank healing, Disco has all the right tools: efficient, burst healing, mitigation, and DR CD for a start.

That being said... there is no holy>disco, disco>holy. Disco is a far superior tank healer, where as holy shines on the raid, however, it takes proper itemization and spell selection to not OOM yourself, especially at low levels. Disco can also raid heal efficiently in a pinch with raid shielding and PI+PoH for spike raid damage, but will not equal holy in throughput and tools. Holy can tank heal, albeit less efficiently, with proper spec choices. However, spec'ing holy to tank heal cripples your raid healing tools. Thus, you might as well spec Disco if you plan to tank heal. A raid holy spec can tank heal in a pinch, its just not very efficient.

[Trecus]

Dual spec it and see what you like more ;D

[Ironfoot]

I would say Disc because I love it and imo it beats Holy, hands down.

However I've noticed in the last month or so that more and more Priests are going Disc, and it's starting to piss me off.

Having to battle other Disc's to PW:S my targets etc is getting annoying.

Therefore I advise you to go Holy, so that on the incredibly slim chamce we ever raid together, I don't have to shout at you

[moremana]

Disc = Tank Healer, Holy = Raid Healer

/thred

[Relina]

Disc is usually more forgiving at lower gear levels, especially regen wise. I know when I first dinged 80 I went oom all the damn time as holy but much less often as Disc. Although Rapture got nerfed to shit since then so I guess I'd suggest dual speccing for now.

[G l o w y r m]

Disc = Tank Healer, Holy = Raid Healer

/thred

Ehh I REALLY DISLIKE this mentality. I understand where you're coming from but it's really putting Discipline in a pigeon hole that it doesn't need to be stuck in even though it IS good at that.

I think Discipline's tools are so fast and versatile that they shine when doing a bit of both, tank and raid healing. This REALLY depends on your raid make up of course. Watching the tank closely with PoM+Shield+Penance while sprinkling PW:S and Flash Heals around the raid, along with some PoH's, is the real Discipline niche.

Now, that might still be considered mainly "tank healing" but I feel like that term might "scare" away some new Discipline Priests that feel like it's too narrow of a niche.

To be honest, I find myself helping out the entire raid usually due to my speed and versatility/buffering/utility power. Not sure exactly what to call that haha.

[Danner]

In early progression, Discipline is with all respects the superior spec.

If you are undergeared, both disc and holy will suffer mana issues, but holy will be extremely hard pressed on the blue bar. If you have good DPS with you, it's not a major problem, but for any fight dragging on for more than 2 minutes, going as an undergeared Holypriest will be a massive liability. Meditation, a pack of manapotions and good usage of cooldowns will mitigate the problem somewhat, but it's easier to just go disc, effectively heal/mitigate better, and not suffer the choking mana issues riddling the holy priest.

--

Once you get better gear (do some ToC5 farming), discipline stops having mana issues alltogether, and holy can keep on healing for long enough for mana to not really be the dealbreaker. At this stage, you are ready for raiding, and both specs are good by now. But they play very different. I suggest trying out both, and see which style that suits you best.

Discipline is adept at both tank and raid healing/shielding. Certainly, the raid healing capabilities of a discpriest is less good than that of a holypriest, but the discpriest is still a priest, and thus carry a flexible toolbox. As Glowyrm says, don't forget to use that. There is nothing more sad than a healer locked onto a single target and neglecting the rest of the raid.

As for spec, pick up inspiration (a must) and Improved Healing (recommended) from the holy tree, then drop the remaining points in anything that doesn't look like a pure PVP talent in the disc tree.

Holy is pretty great for raidhealing, and has excellent burst and cooldowns making druids look bad - but lacks a decent MT healing spell. If your tank takes more damage than a FHeal can outheal, holy is borderline powerless to sustainably keep the MT up. Gheal is too slow and expensive, GS has a way too long cooldown, and the shield is too weak. You can spec a holypriest into being a capable MT healer, but that will sacrifice a lot on the raidhealing department. Bottomline: if you are supposed to MT heal in a given fight, go discipline.

Speccing a holypriest is very flexible. Get meditation, spiritual healing, spiritual guidance, Guardian spirit, Circle of Healing, Holy concentration and Spirit of Redemption. After that, you can pretty much pick whatever you feel like, it's damned impossible to do it "wrong". The better the talents reflect your healing style, the better.

[Ironfoot]

As for spec, pick up inspiration (a must) and Improved Healing (recommended) from the holy tree, then drop the remaining points in anything that doesn't look like a pure PVP talent in the disc tree.

I agree with most of what you say, however I have found from experience that you shouldn't need the reduced mana cost from Improved Healing, and those points could be better spent elsewhere in the Disc Tree.

For a Disc Spec, http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...1,OpaqRO,10554 is pretty good. It's exactly what I use. The 57 points in the Disc tree are the standard, then the 14 in Holy are up for some debate. Some people like Healing Focus and Improved Renew, some like Divine Fury. They don't make a huge difference overral, so play about with them.

The only things I would recommend you "have" to take as Disc, from the Holy tree, is Holy Specilisation and Inspiration. Both excellent talents for a Disc Priest imo.

[harky]

Ehh I REALLY DISLIKE this mentality. I understand where you're coming from but it's really putting Discipline in a pigeon hole that it doesn't need to be stuck in even though it IS good at that.

Thinking that Disc = Tank, Holy = Raid is /thread might be wrong, but I think you're missing the key point here. If you're going to be tank healing at all, you should be Disc. The reason is not because Disc is purely a tank healer, but because Holy should never tank heal. Sure you can heal heroics, sure you can heal content you out gear, but every other healer can do it substantially better.

To the OP: Disc requires less gear and is more stable in heroics. Holy takes a while to get to a gear level (~213'ish) where it's a stable and strong healing spec. Disc on the other hand can heal Naxx 25 in quested gear and rep items without much of a problem. Disc also does better with 5 man ToC gear than Holy by a substantial margin. You can actually go heal non-heroic 10/25 ToC in the 5 man ToC gear as Disc, while you'd struggle a lot as Holy.

The primary reason right now to be Holy is if you're raiding and already have another Disc Priest (10 mans), or two other Disc Priests (25 mans). If that's not the case, then you should be Disc. Disc can still help with the raid a great deal and creates a nice synergy with Druids in particular. That is, a target at low health is shielded which allows HoTs to tick while the shield is preserved for upcoming damage. At the same time you're the best second healer for a tank and also the second best choice for a primary tank healer.

Holy is fine too, but Disc should almost always be the priority. If you don't have a Disc Priest your first choice should be Disc. If you already do have one you need to consider raid size (10/25) to see how much overlap there will be. The reason is that in a 10 man a single Disc Priest can keep the entire raid with Weakened Soul, while in 25 man it takes two. Having more than that causes a lot of overlap on fights were mass shielding is good. On fights that it isn't then you're looking at the tank count. Most fights take at most 2 tanks now, while having more than one Disc Priest on a tank isn't optimal (Get a Pally already!).

That said... it's often easier to get into a casual raiding guild as Holy. Many raid leaders and guild leaders still don't grasp that Disc, not Holy is the premier Priest healer and only look at the massive amount of HPS Holy can put out in heavy AOE fights. Meanwhile Disc is consistently the lowest on 'healing meters' as they completely ignore absorbs. So... depends. If you're just getting into things though, I'd strongly suggest going Disc. It's substantially better in heroics and it will help you play catch-up by healing harder content while under-geared.

[Revitalize]

Discipline is not exactly a tank healer.
Their HPS and mitigation alone cannot solo heal tank, especially in hard hitting encounters.
I found disc to have alot of versatility when it came to semi tank healing and being part of the raid healing as well.
They are not pure tank healers, and I dont think they ever will be.
That's a Holy Paladins job.


Holy, is purely raid healing without a doubt, but sometimes you do assist in healing the tank when need be.


All in all:

Priests arent tank healers in general.
They will assist in healing the tank, but they don't make great full tank healers.

[Xuany]

I'm a big fan of raid healing, going for chain heals to Holy spec is so much more fun, and I know Disc isn't just for tanks but most people don't know that so if your Disc you just about stuck on a tank, well that's what I've noticed anyway. Besides that, I like raid healing as Holy anyway. My opinion.

I did have a lot of trouble healing heroics ding 80 with some crafted gear but now that you can find just about any type of geared tank (thanks to badge gear and ToC) you really shouldn't have to heal the tank much just keep him topped off :P

[Vanthere]

First of all disc can solo tank heal any normal mode encounter. Easily 100% uptime on inspiration PW shield the tank on cooldown, keep renew up, pennance on cooldown and flash heal spam. The out put is high enough to keep up a tank, and on hard mode 25 man toc u need 2 healers on a tank anyways.


As far as holy gos there is a pure raid spec and there is a tank/raid spec. But really there is no reason to go tank/raid spec as holy when u can easily dual spec disco.

[rekinash]

However I've noticed in the last month or so that more and more Priests are going Disc, and it's starting to piss me off.

Having to battle other Disc's to PW:S my targets etc is getting annoying.

I`ve seen this happen a lot too. I`ve been disc since the 2nd month of LK, and i`m loving it. In a raid there shouldn`t be more than 1 disc anyway, imo that`s a waste of a healer.

Also, just because more priests go disc, doesn`t mean they actually know how to play one. I`ve seen and heared of discs failing like champs It`s because most of them come from Holy style. I`ve been in a raid or 2 with another disc, and they were actually playin` Holy style. Close to no SW:P, Greater Heals, Renews used a lot ... what can I say, pure crap

Also ...for those who wonder about meters, get RecountGuessedAbsorbs. If you know how to play ur disc, 95% of the boss fights u`ll end up first if you add the healing + shields. Just think of this: my last 10`man Twins got me to 2mil absorbs + ~700k healed. The Druid had just under 2 mil healed. Of course, I`m usually (except when i`m healing with some fail healers on my side) at the bottom of the healing meters, with my hps rarely going over 2k. But when you look at absorbs, that`s when things start to shine

What can I say, Disc is awesome

have fun

[Evereghalo]

In terms of raid comp:

In 25man Resto Druids > Holy Priests in terms of aoe and raid healing.

In 25man no healer can do what a disc priest does every hardmode raiding guild needs one, period.

In 10man, it is invaluable to have for fights so intense that need 3 healers.

[[-Spiritus-]]

In terms of raid comp:

In 25man Resto Druids > Holy Priests in terms of aoe and raid healing.

In 25mans Holy Priests > Resto Druids for burst AoE and raid healing. No spec can pump more HPS in a short duration than a holy priest, and that is their strength.

Resto Druids are the sexy for AoE and raid healing, but in terms of smoothing out damage through pre-hots, and periodic swiftmends for critical cases. Because of this, they will generally, with equal gear and skill, "top the meters" over a holy priest. However, when it comes to massive raid wide AoE, esp. in hardmodes, nothing beats a holy priest when it comes to getting the raid topped Right Now(tm).

In point, resto druids and holy priests are synergistic and both should be included in any good healing comp.

[harky]

Holy Priests only appear to have better burst raid wide healing because when both are in a raid the Holy Priest will typically be overriding HoTs with direct heals. If you switch a Resto Druid for a Holy Priest what you'll find is that unless your raid is organized by fight position the Resto Druid will handle the 'burst' AOE situations better. It's simply a case of Wild Growth and Rejuvenation healing for more than Circle of Healing and Renew.

The reason Disc is encouraged with Resto Druids is because contrary to what you claimed Holy has a negative synergy with Resto Druids. When a Holy Priest is present the Resto Druid will be worse than they would have had the Holy Priest been replaced by another healer. The Holy Priest actually hurts the Resto Druid. The opposite is true of Disc because the way that Disc helps the raid is through shields, which means Resto Druid HoTs assist the shielded target, but the shield remains. That's synergy. Holy Priests have for a very long time been known as a heal sniping class. They look good on meters because they can beat other healers to the punch.

The best way to see it is if you have both. Check the over-healing on the Priest compared to the Resto Druid. If the Holy Priest is doing what they're best at the Resto Druid should have at least twice as much over-healing. If the Holy Priest wants to be a real prick they can even push the Resto Druid into the high 80s on over-heal percentage. Then again Discipline can do the same thing on a fight like Archavon. Reduce all raid damage for the entire fight to about 50-60k and watch everyone else ride their way to 95%+ over-heals.

Synergy is about two classes working together to produce something better than the combined total of their work separately. Holy + Resto the Holy Priest appropriates HoT healing which gives them more healing, while converting the Druid's healing into over-healing. Disc + Resto this does not happen, the Disc Priest protects targets in danger from dying while HoTs do their work. Holy + Resto only has synergy in that Holy is the most likely healer to run into mana problems, so Innervate is nice. Disc + Resto has a true synergism.

[Zka]

Disc = Tank Healer, Holy = Raid Healer

/thred

You're ignorant.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Holy Priests only appear to have better burst raid wide healing because when both are in a raid the Holy Priest will typically be overriding HoTs with direct heals. If you switch a Resto Druid for a Holy Priest what you'll find is that unless your raid is organized by fight position the Resto Druid will handle the 'burst' AOE situations better. It's simply a case of Wild Growth and Rejuvenation healing for more than Circle of Healing and Renew.

The reason Disc is encouraged with Resto Druids is because contrary to what you claimed Holy has a negative synergy with Resto Druids. When a Holy Priest is present the Resto Druid will be worse than they would have had the Holy Priest been replaced by another healer. The Holy Priest actually hurts the Resto Druid. The opposite is true of Disc because the way that Disc helps the raid is through shields, which means Resto Druid HoTs assist the shielded target, but the shield remains. That's synergy. Holy Priests have for a very long time been known as a heal sniping class. They look good on meters because they can beat other healers to the punch.

The best way to see it is if you have both. Check the over-healing on the Priest compared to the Resto Druid. If the Holy Priest is doing what they're best at the Resto Druid should have at least twice as much over-healing. If the Holy Priest wants to be a real prick they can even push the Resto Druid into the high 80s on over-heal percentage. Then again Discipline can do the same thing on a fight like Archavon. Reduce all raid damage for the entire fight to about 50-60k and watch everyone else ride their way to 95%+ over-heals.

Synergy is about two classes working together to produce something better than the combined total of their work separately. Holy + Resto the Holy Priest appropriates HoT healing which gives them more healing, while converting the Druid's healing into over-healing. Disc + Resto this does not happen, the Disc Priest protects targets in danger from dying while HoTs do their work. Holy + Resto only has synergy in that Holy is the most likely healer to run into mana problems, so Innervate is nice. Disc + Resto has a true synergism.

This would be a valid argument if the Disc priest could spam shields continuously w/o WS, or had AoE shielding. While I agree that Shield+HoT is effective, its not the synergy I am talking about.

"Burst healing," for the holy priest isn't roll renews+CoH. Its this (removing haste for sake of math):

-3sec: Cast PoH
0sec: PoH Lands, Cast CoH
1.5sec: Cast PoH
4.5sec: PoH Lands, cast SoL FH

Thats a total of 17 targets in 4.5sec receiving anywhere between 2.5-8k healing done, not counting ProM or pre-casted renews. In a perfect scenario, a holy priest could have a glyphed renew running on 3 extra targets (tanks most likely) hitting for 2.5k a tick and at least 1 prom hitting for anywhere between 7-10k (t9bonus).

The reason why resto druids and holy priest are synergistic is druid HoTs stabilize the raid allowing the holy priest time to use DHs such as CoH & PoH to top the raid before any other significant damage is dealt via a fire bomb, chain lightning, etc.

Take this scenaro with disc and druid. If a disc priest pre-shields the raid wide AoE, he is still sniping from the druid, as you pointed out. If the disc priest shields after the AoE it would take him 17seconds to hit the same number of targets as a holy priest can in 4.5sec. Furthermore, if the shield is there to protect the HoT, and damage does not occur, its just a pretty bubble. If it does soak damage, its a great combination, but ultimately not burst healing as it takes too long to shield after the effect for it to be truly effective.

Synergy, in my mind, is what gets the job done best, not what makes druids OR priest have higher HPS on the meters. Druids raid stabilizing while holy priests drop the AoE DHs IS synergistic because it will get the raid to full faster than Disc+Druid ever could. Also, good holy priests don't have mana issues. If so, your other healers are slacking, you have poor spell selection, you have itemized incorrectly, or your raid is taking unnecessary damage.

Again, if a holy priest is doing what they do best (burst AoE healing), and a resto druid is doing what they do best (raid stabilization), both win and everyone is topped off quickly. In my guild, there is no qq in our healing corps over "sniping" because we all play to our strengths, and if the boss goes down, we win. Nobody wins anything by being 1st on the meters, we win stuff when bosses die. Sometimes I'm 1st on the meters, sometimes a druid is, sometimes the disc priest is, sometimes the resto shaman is, and sometimes even the paladin is. I fail to see how druids not getting every drop out of their hots because I'm laying down righteous burst healing is bad for the raid. I fail to see how getting everyone to 100% health as quickly as possible is bad for the raid.

To me, your argument is unsound because instead of asking the question "how do I get the raid from XX% to 100% the fastest?" you ask "how do I squeeze the maximum HPS out of druids?"