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  1. #21

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    First off... no i didn't read every single post in this thread, but i just want to make a quick post.

    I used to play a holy paladin (wasn't for long but was during the "OMG INTEL STACK" stage) and i understand the benefits of intel stacking. But i think the days where you stack int and spam HL are over, and people who are clinging onto that idea are a little short sighted and don't want to change their ways because it actually requires a bit of work on their gear and how they actually play.

    Me and my guild currently only do 10man content as we find it more fun, and one of our 2-3 healers is a holy paladin (who happens to be my GM). He used to be a crit and int whore like i used to be, until he started taking notice of how much his SS hot was actually healing for. He began revising how he played his paladin and finally settled on getting more mp5/haste/sp over pure intel. Now i can tell you, he is a superb healer, he gets some fantastic numbers and almost at the end of almost every fight, he points out his mana pool to me, most times being above 90%. Now he admits he is a bit overstacked on mp5 and could use some more SP, but the idea is simple. With enough mp5, you're able to cast Flash of light almost consecutively without losing any mana, as your gaining more than it actually costs.

    Ok, i'm not telling you how to play, and i'm not saying intel stacking is wrong or bad, i'm simply suggesting a new way of playing. Who knows, you may get a bit more out of your gear than you've been getting lately. This may or may not be relevant to doing 25 mans as i haven't done 25's since t7, but just something to think about.

    Oh, and i do realise i said this was gonna be a 'quick post'. Lol. Btw, he doesn't generally go over 20% OH... pretty crazy for a holy paladin, dont you think?
    There is no Arthas, only Ner'zhul.

  2. #22

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cin
    With enough mp5, you're able to cast Flash of light almost consecutively without losing any mana, as your gaining more than it actually costs.
    FoL kills tanks.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  3. #23

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo
    FoL kills tanks.
    If a boss is hitting that hard, you wouldn't have 1 holy paladin assigned to the tank. I can understand you're point (however short), but there ARE other options. It just seems majority of healadins are stuck in this intel stacking rut, and can't get out. Don't knock back a new way of playing simply because it's new. Try it before you complain. Heaven forbid you actually optimise and fine tune your gear and the way you play.
    There is no Arthas, only Ner'zhul.

  4. #24

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Yes i made an account to comment on this lol. I'm not going to knock the way anyone is gemming but for an endgame holy paladin healing hard modes.

    FoL Kills Tanks.

    Hence Int stacking wins.

  5. #25

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cin
    If a boss is hitting that hard, you wouldn't have 1 holy paladin assigned to the tank. I can understand you're point (however short), but there ARE other options. It just seems majority of healadins are stuck in this intel stacking rut, and can't get out. Don't knock back a new way of playing simply because it's new. Try it before you complain. Heaven forbid you actually optimise and fine tune your gear and the way you play.
    Have looked into recount countless times after a tank died and what do I see:
    Either a Flash of Light or ... a Bacon that heals for some 5-6kish.
    -> FoL kills tanks.
    There is only 1 reason to use FoL and that is to get the HoT, when the tank is topped up.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  6. #26

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cin
    Now i can tell you, he is a superb healer, he gets some fantastic numbers and almost at the end of almost every fight, he points out his mana pool to me, most times being above 90%.
    Assuming you're not talking about ridiculously easy farm content, this is not at all something to be proud of. In fact, this is a clear indicator of "you're doing it wrong". Good healers, of any class, will strive to end a fight as close to 0 mana as possible without going OOM.

    Btw, he doesn't generally go over 20% OH... pretty crazy for a holy paladin, dont you think?
    That's not crazy. That's terrible. Low OH is a mark of a bad Pally.

    Before I get into why, let me talk about overhealing meters for a sec. Back in Pre-BC, there was a very clear link between your OH and your skill as what was then the only "good" healer in the game, the Priest class. Low OH as a Priest back then meant you were making the most of your mana. The importance of this measure has dwindled greatly over time even for Priests, and for Pallies it is completely non-existent. However, some of these old time Priests never got the message and have re-rolled Pallies or been promoted to Healing Lead positions where they push the value of this measure on newer players who don't know better. And thus you end up with Pallies that care about their OH when they really really really shouldn't.

    A much better indicator of mana management is, as I said above, how close to 0% mana you are at the end of the fight. This isn't a particularly good system for figuring out how well people are managing their mana, but it's a quick and easy one if you don't want to scour combat logs.

    There are two things that low OH tells you about what a Holy Pally is doing wrong. First is that he's not using Beacon of Light and thus is effectively cutting his healing output by as much as half. There is no raid fight in the game where only one person takes damage, so there is always someone you can put Beacon on. Beacon overheals like mad a good deal of the time - so if his OH is as low as you say, he's clearly not using it.

    The second is that he's not keeping your tank topped off and is relying on his tiny HoT and small FoLs to keep the tank "pretty close" to full health. In an environment where a tank going from 100% to 0 inside of a second or two is a real possibility, "pretty close" is not not good enough. Buffed tanks run with 50k or more health and the average FoL is healing for 5-6k. It would take him like 7 casts of FoL to bring your tank from near death to full - something I can do with two HLs.

    The bottom line is this. Holy Light heals more than Flash of Light. This is fact. With our amazing ability to use Int as a regen stat, it is entirely possible to use HL as your main healing spell. Who in their right mind would chose "little heal" over "big heal" all else being equal? Given you have the mana for it, the only reason to ever cast FoL over HL is the speed. And since it's not difficult at all to get your HL down to 1.3 seconds and FoL cannot possibly get any faster than 1 second, even that is a minor consideration.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  7. #27

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cin
    If a boss is hitting that hard, you wouldn't have 1 holy paladin assigned to the tank.
    No. The point is that with HL you CAN just assign one person to the tank instead of using FoL and having to use two. That's the whole idea.

    You keep saying that HL use is a rut and that we should give FoL a chance, but the reality is that HL is plainly superior. So much so that you don't even need to try out the FoL method to know that it's just out and out worse. Big Heal > Little Heal. It's a simple concept.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  8. #28

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Go do int.
    when you are done socketing and enchanting int:

    Get some more int

    When ur done, make sure u got the +int trinkets

    Then get some more int

    Free win.

  9. #29

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Don't get me wrong here. Certainly not, haste is a very very good thing but from what Ive experienced pretty much everyone here that post says haste is a gift from god.

    I run with:
    33k buffed mana,
    513mp5 while casting,
    Alround 35,5% crit (higher ofc in a raidenviroment)
    405 haste (I gone down from 550+ since I consider haste to be a complement to lack of skill, and a rough 1.4sec HL is plenty fast,here is where I dont want you to get me wrong) (I do eat 40+haste food tho)
    2621sp

    With this setup there's not a single fight in toc10/25 I do not top the skillo-meter by a big margain even tho I run with another paladin who sacrifices mp5 in favor for haste (aka throughput stat). Toc certainly is the most paladin friendly raidinstance out of em all if you ask me. I don't have to tell you that my tanks never ever dies right?
    Looking through recount it also shows I'm the one healing the tanks for highest amount (measured in % and not actual healthpoints)

    Still from my future upgrades Im looking for, I do prioritize haste but I'm certainly not aiming for a ridicolous amount of haste as some of you proclaim to be something to aim for.

  10. #30

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    I'm currently stacking int but have also gemmed int, int/mp5, and int/sp to get socket bonuses. I don't think either is "wrong" per say, but int stacking is more beneficial for fights where your raid is learning/taking a lot of damage; ie progression.

    The best gear to look for is haste/mp5 gear but it's relatively rare (this and the 258 equivalents are all I could think of off the top of my head from ToC):
    Sunforged Bracers (crafted)
    Turalyon's gloves of Triumph (Tier)
    Ring of the Darkmender (Jeraxxus 25)
    Legguards of Concealed Hatred (mail off 25 champs)

    After that I go for haste/crit gear, and as a last option crit/mp5. I flask for mp5 but head and shoulder enchant for sp/crit. Not sure if i should change that or not.

    I consider haste to be a complement to lack of skill
    That's... interesting. To each his own I guess. I want my HL around 1.2 seconds so haste is pretty important to me. I must be deficient in the skill department. For people who agree with Fajer, you'd simply prioritize Crit/mp5 gear over Crit/haste gear and your haste will plummet.

  11. #31

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    For someone to make a statement that FoL is acceptable to tank heal is horribly wrong, and is only running easymode content and heroic instances. This is fact, sorry to bust some bubbles here. Tanks are taking 20-30K damage every 1.5-2.5 seconds in alot of cases now in heroic ToC. FoL will never keep a tank alive in this case.

    My HL is on 1.4 secs and can provide three times the healing per cast over FoL consistently and only costs .3-.4 secs more cast time. With my current trinkets and Libram (Triumph badge Libram/Trinket and Pandora's Plea) it is nothing in combat to be pushing nothing but 20+ HL's, with spikes over 32K.

    The fact that in Heroic ToC25 a Pally can go as high as 20K effective HPS proves that FoL is only for HoT use or for other minor hits. Same applies to HS, I only really use it if there is a BRez being used and I want that person up very fast as it's one of the largest hitting instant cast heals in game, mine likes to stay around the 10K range.

    Set bonuses are not really worth it, most 245-258 gear that I have seems to have been blessed by blizzard and has like one socket, and it's YELLOW. Major blessing by bliz as far as socket bonuses are.

    As far as haste goes, your going to get enough of it with the current gear, no need for any more then that, same applies to MP5. It is nothing to smash through 250K mana in a encounter and still end the fight over 50% pool.
    If your raid is structured correctly you have several tools that allow for replenishment either by tick or rapidly. I personaly switched over to SoW/JoW as JoW is melee hit and provides 1588 mana per hit. I really now only use DP during certain spots when I am not having to cast at all and prefer to keep it that way with the healing debuff.

    Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Deathwarrant

  12. #32

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cin

    Me and my guild currently only do 10man content as we find it more fun, and one of our 2-3 healers is a holy paladin (who happens to be my GM).

    Because 10-man with 3 healers is serious business.

  13. #33

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwarrant
    For someone to make a statement that FoL is acceptable to tank heal is horribly wrong, and is only running easymode content and heroic instances. This is fact, sorry to bust some bubbles here. Tanks are taking 20-30K damage every 1.5-2.5 seconds in alot of cases now in heroic ToC. FoL will never keep a tank alive in this case.

    My HL is on 1.4 secs and can provide three times the healing per cast over FoL consistently and only costs .3-.4 secs more cast time. With my current trinkets and Libram (Triumph badge Libram/Trinket and Pandora's Plea) it is nothing in combat to be pushing nothing but 20+ HL's, with spikes over 32K.

    The fact that in Heroic ToC25 a Pally can go as high as 20K effective HPS proves that FoL is only for HoT use or for other minor hits. Same applies to HS, I only really use it if there is a BRez being used and I want that person up very fast as it's one of the largest hitting instant cast heals in game, mine likes to stay around the 10K range.

    Set bonuses are not really worth it, most 245-258 gear that I have seems to have been blessed by blizzard and has like one socket, and it's YELLOW. Major blessing by bliz as far as socket bonuses are.

    As far as haste goes, your going to get enough of it with the current gear, no need for any more then that, same applies to MP5. It is nothing to smash through 250K mana in a encounter and still end the fight over 50% pool.
    If your raid is structured correctly you have several tools that allow for replenishment either by tick or rapidly. I personaly switched over to SoW/JoW as JoW is melee hit and provides 1588 mana per hit. I really now only use DP during certain spots when I am not having to cast at all and prefer to keep it that way with the healing debuff.

    let me ask your question. HAVE YOU TRIED FLASH LIGHT SPEC AND GEM? OR YOUR JUST SAY THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT TRYING.
    your holy light cast is 1.4 seconds. but how much do you heal? like 9k-11k per holy light without crits? your holy light is probably 13k average if you have 2400sp.

    my flash light is 1 second cast. with 3000sp. i provide more benefit than your sacred shield. and with t9 4 sets bonus, i provide a constant 1500-2300 HOT on tank. not to mention that my flash light crits 9k to 10k. with the hot, it's close to your 13k holy light except my flash light is 0.4 seconds fast. omg.


    and by the way. being flash light doesn't mean your casting 100% flash light. come on, it is just means more than 50% of your healing spells are flash light. you do need to cast holy light as needed during different phases
    oh and with 3k sp , 3300 sp raid buffed, the holy light heals 15000 and crits over 21000. it;s more mana efficient than your lame 13k holy light. which you have to cast twice.

    for people that saying you need to cast 7 flash light for flash light spec compare to 2 holy light casts from holy light spec. it's totally wrong.
    DON'T BE STUBBON, DO THE MATH, TRY IT , AND TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL.

  14. #34

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadas

    That's... interesting. To each his own I guess. I want my HL around 1.2 seconds so haste is pretty important to me. I must be deficient in the skill department. For people who agree with Fajer, you'd simply prioritize Crit/mp5 gear over Crit/haste gear and your haste will plummet.
    Dude don't take it the wrong way :P
    My haste plummeted just like you said, but it was good! Maybe it has gone down to far but as I said to much haste is just rubbish to have if you ask me. I would not achieve anything at all by having... Say 600 haste over my 400 now. But I'd sure like to have a bit more than 400 but that would have to be in the next tier content since I can't be arsed with changing stuff now and my gearsetup has proven to be quite awesome.
    To give a example, bad one since I probably overgear the place but in normal Toc25 I don't even use DP since there's no real need for it(dunno if you can say you overgear the latest tiercontent :O ).
    I just gotta ask if you do it. My fellow paladin does (He's sacrificing all mp5 gear)

  15. #35

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    I would try to get to 400-500 in combat mp5 with wisdom up.

  16. #36

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadas
    I'm currently stacking int but have also gemmed int, int/mp5, and int/sp to get socket bonuses. I don't think either is "wrong" per say, but int stacking is more beneficial for fights where your raid is learning/taking a lot of damage; ie progression.
    I have a problem gemming for SP at all, mainly due to the fact that I'm already at a high amount of overhealing. I do have the "luxury" of being Tailor/JC, so my gear setup is Tears from Toc5, Mana return meta, and Mana return cloak enchant for tailors. All in all it adds up to quite a bit of +mana for me.

  17. #37

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Fajer
    Dude don't take it the wrong way :P
    My haste plummeted just like you said, but it was good! Maybe it has gone down to far but as I said to much haste is just rubbish to have if you ask me. I would not achieve anything at all by having... Say 600 haste over my 400 now. But I'd sure like to have a bit more than 400 but that would have to be in the next tier content since I can't be arsed with changing stuff now and my gearsetup has proven to be quite awesome.
    To give a example, bad one since I probably overgear the place but in normal Toc25 I don't even use DP since there's no real need for it(dunno if you can say you overgear the latest tiercontent :O ).
    I just gotta ask if you do it. My fellow paladin does (He's sacrificing all mp5 gear)
    Probably has more to do with tanks/dps.

    Unless you're sporting upwards of 50-60k mana (essentially impossible) I don't see how you could avoid using DP unless you're deliberately trying to do so by using pots/divinity glyph/innverates/etc or your tanks are exquisitely geared and your dps is destroying the stuff quickly.

  18. #38

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by holii
    my flash light is 1 second cast. with 3000sp. i provide more benefit than your sacred shield. and with t9 4 sets bonus, i provide a constant 1500-2300 HOT on tank. not to mention that my flash light crits 9k to 10k. with the hot, it's close to your 13k holy light except my flash light is 0.4 seconds fast. omg.
    I'm at 2800 and I don't gem, gear or spec for that FoL nonsense. If your crits are 9k, then your average is probably 7k. My average HL is 14.5k and my cast time on it is 1.3 seconds.

    So let's see... I can spend an extra 0.3 seconds and get twice the heal... Hmmm... Tough call.

    DON'T BE STUBBON, DO THE MATH, TRY IT , AND TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL.
    The problem is that the first part (doing the math) makes the last part (trying it) a laughable proposition.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  19. #39

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by Caean
    Unless you're sporting upwards of 50-60k mana (essentially impossible) I don't see how you could avoid using DP unless you're deliberately trying to do so by using pots/divinity glyph/innverates/etc or your tanks are exquisitely geared and your dps is destroying the stuff quickly.
    I believe him because I don't Plea for it either. Easy mode TotC is a joke for my guild. I don't Plea, I don't get an Innervate and the likelihood of me even Potting anytime before Heroic Twins is pretty slim. My guild is US 135 atm though, so as you said, it's probably just a matter of the gear/skill of the raid.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  20. #40

    Re: holy paladin mp5

    Quote Originally Posted by holii

    let me ask your question. HAVE YOU TRIED FLASH LIGHT SPEC AND GEM? OR YOUR JUST SAY THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT TRYING.
    your holy light cast is 1.4 seconds. but how much do you heal? like 9k-11k per holy light without crits? your holy light is probably 13k average if you have 2400sp.

    my flash light is 1 second cast. with 3000sp. i provide more benefit than your sacred shield. and with t9 4 sets bonus, i provide a constant 1500-2300 HOT on tank. not to mention that my flash light crits 9k to 10k. with the hot, it's close to your 13k holy light except my flash light is 0.4 seconds fast. omg.
    Actually there are times when I do use a majority of FoL, and even while I use my pvp libram for the 331sp to FoL if I remember right. Those number come nowhere close to my HL output. But that cast style us only used when I go do the heroic daily, or on Faction Champs. (Any of the 4 lockouts)

    I looked at the numbers, tyvm I will stick with what allows my tanks to live. Large int pools, high SP, 550-600 haste, and 40%+ crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by holii
    and by the way. being flash light doesn't mean your casting 100% flash light. come on, it is just means more than 50% of your healing spells are flash light. you do need to cast holy light as needed during different phases
    oh and with 3k sp , 3300 sp raid buffed, the holy light heals 15000 and crits over 21000. it;s more mana efficient than your lame 13k holy light. which you have to cast twice.
    13K Holy light, in what Uld 10 gear? The only piece of gear I am wearing that isn't 245+ is Pandora's Plea which is still very good trink for holy pally. I have roughly 2700SP unbuffed, so my HL's hit like a mack truck with crits well over 32K but fairly consistant in the 18-22K range, which also has the splash healing for my Melee plus transfers via the beacon so thats what? 50K avg healing over 7 targets in 1.4secs? Sorry, FoL cannot do these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by holii
    for people that saying you need to cast 7 flash light for flash light spec compare to 2 holy light casts from holy light spec. it's totally wrong.
    DON'T BE STUBBON, DO THE MATH, TRY IT , AND TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL.
    When you can go tank heal Anub in Heroic ToC 25 with FoL I will replace the 19 Int gems I have gladly, until then. I think my raid would rather the tank live based on what works, then what might work.

    BTW, I posted a Armory link earlier on the first page of this thread. Go look @ that before you attack my healing, thats why I posted the link so people would look before making a silly post. Although I do understand you made the post while the Armory is down.

    Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Deathwarrant

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