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  1. #41

    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    I think they should make it so you are specced for both always, its stupid for hybrids becasue if i want to tank, and dps, and pvp you have to keep changing specs like always, pure dps can have a static pvp and pve, maybe that is the allure to that type of class. There are some classes that don't even need pvp talents and they will preform the same as some that do have them. The mastery system will remove a lot of talents so maybe we will see added pvp benefit to more talents. I mean the Rogue first 2 tiers of subtlety talents are being made passive for Cataclysm (which is both cool and OP).
    Name one. Any class, just pick one. The reason you stayed vague is because the statement I put in bold is bogus. Even classes that have the same point allocation for PVP and PVE have different points taken. See 57/14 and 57/14 for Discipline. Same point allocation, 15 talent points off when compared side by side. That's without even touching dominant 'pure DPS' classes, like say Rogue which almost universally switches to 41/5/25.

    The great part? Most high end raiding guilds expect players to have multiple PVE specs, regardless of class. Mages have Arcane and Fire, Rogues have Mutilate and Combat, Warlocks have some combination (Aff/Destro, Aff/Demo, Destro/Demo), etc.

    Oh and your 'op' idea of Cataclysm? Those aren't being made baseline. You unlock those by going deep enough into that tree to get them. The same is happening for all classes, if you go 5/10/15/20/etc into a tree you get certain passive bonuses. If you have 0 points in that tree you get none of those bonuses.

  2. #42

    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weena
    SW:P is 1% of your base mana per tick, a priests base mana at 80 is 3863, so every 3seconds we get 38.6mana. 38.6/3 x 5 is 64.3 MP5. So shadow word pain glyph is worth 64.3Mp5, and nothing else.

    SW glyph is 10% more damage under 35%, so this is basically a dps increase after 35% only. Considering we will more than likely MF spamming in full T10 gear, i would see no need for this glyph. At the moment though 10% more damage on SW would mean it does around...85% of MB damage, might use this till 4piece tier 10...maybe...

    Dispersion glyph scales with your mana meaning, that even though shadowpriests dont have mana issues, this will provide more mana than SW:P glyph, at the cost of some dps. Assume a priest has 25k in a raid, this will bring back 9k mana every 75seconds, which is 120mp5. (Again you wont use this on CD, but it is worth more mana than SW:P glyph). The important side to this glyph is that it provides 90% damage reduction every 75seconds, rather than 120seconds.

    Personally i would go with dispersion > SW > SW:P
    Returning to this briefly:

    Dispersion unglyphed has a 2 min CD, which using your estimated 9k mana return is 75 Mp5. This means the glyph is worth only about 120-75=45 Mp5 - significantly less than the SWP glyph even if you have zero haste. I can appreciate the argument to use that glyph as a utility / damage soak however.

    Personally I'll be using SWP, MF, and Shadow. If mana is not an issue I'll be dropping additional points from Focused Mind and returning to 3/3 shadow weaving and perhaps picking up Inner Focus.


    Also - for those discussing whether Imp Shadowform or Imp VE is superior - why choose? I've been using this spec for the past two weeks and have found it to be effective. With 2/3 Shadow Weaving your stacks will not drop off, however you might lose one tick of SWP at the start of the fight depending on your luck building the initial stacks. If you aren't comfortable with only a 66% chance to gain a Shadow Weaving stack, and aren't having any mana issues you can drop an additional point from Focused Mind.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Name one. Any class, just pick one. The reason you stayed vague is because the statement I put in bold is bogus. Even classes that have the same point allocation for PVP and PVE have different points taken. See 57/14 and 57/14 for Discipline. Same point allocation, 15 talent points off when compared side by side. That's without even touching dominant 'pure DPS' classes, like say Rogue which almost universally switches to 41/5/25.

    The great part? Most high end raiding guilds expect players to have multiple PVE specs, regardless of class. Mages have Arcane and Fire, Rogues have Mutilate and Combat, Warlocks have some combination (Aff/Destro, Aff/Demo, Destro/Demo), etc.

    Oh and your 'op' idea of Cataclysm? Those aren't being made baseline. You unlock those by going deep enough into that tree to get them. The same is happening for all classes, if you go 5/10/15/20/etc into a tree you get certain passive bonuses. If you have 0 points in that tree you get none of those bonuses.
    No no, The passive thing is a buff to rogues I was talking about they discussed how they are making most of the 2 first tier of subtlety passive, I know how the mastery works, Classes like arms warriors have a shit tone of PvP ability even if they are specced PvE for example. excluding the health regen PvP specific talents. I think they need to give all the classes PvP viability without speccing for it along with improvements to each one in talents. So you can pvp and not have to worry about respeccing. Or to fix the whole thing all together give a tri talent tree option so everyone can have a PvP spec if they are hybrids. If Pure gets more DPS Hybrids need a perk (don't say the ability to heal or tank, that's not a perk, that's an annoyance if you hate both).
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  4. #44

    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyus
    Returning to this briefly:

    Dispersion unglyphed has a 2 min CD, which using your estimated 9k mana return is 75 Mp5. This means the glyph is worth only about 120-75=45 Mp5 - significantly less than the SWP glyph even if you have zero haste. I can appreciate the argument to use that glyph as a utility / damage soak however.
    I'm not going to encourage the Dispersion glyph (I think it's overkill), but this math is pretty sketchy. Let's take a decent raid buffed amount of mana, say 23k. Dispersion returns a maximum of 36% of that every 2 minutes when unglyphed. That's 8,280 mana every 2 minutes, or 345 mp/5. With the glyph it returns the same amount every minute and 15 seconds, which is 552 mp/5. That means the glyph is worth 207 mp/5 if Dispersion is used on cooldown.

    I know that your numbers were based on Weena's, but Weena's numbers were also substantially off due to a mathematical error. Mana per 5 is mana per 5 seconds, not per 1 second. If you take mana gained and divide by the number of seconds, you then need to multiply by 5 to get mp/5. The original math left out the multiplication and that corrupted the numbers. You can use the following formula to figure out the maximum mp/5 gain from using the glyph:

    ( max mana * .36 ) / 15 - (max mana * .36 ) / 24

    An easier way to look at it is that you gain 45 mp/5 for every 5,000 mana you have. 15k = 135, 20k = 180, 25k = 225, 30k = 270 and so on.

    SW:P's mp/5 can be computed like this:

    3863/100/(3/(1+(haste/100))*5

    Baseline is 64.38 mp/5 and you gain about .64 mp/5 for each percent of haste you have. At 20% haste you're up at 77.26 mp/5, while at 30% you'd be at 83.7 mp/5.

    Dispersion provides much higher mana returns when used on cooldown. However, if it's not used on cooldown then you need to figure out how often Dispersion is cast and if that outweighs SW:P's mana returns. For instance with 16.5% haste and 20k mana you would need to cast Dispersion at least once every 97 seconds for the Dispersion glyph to be worthwhile. With 25k mana and the same haste it would be every 100 seconds. If you're casting Dispersion any less than that it's an mp/5 loss.

    Taking my own raid buffed stats when I was Shadow 23k mana and 25% (15.5% base) haste I would need to cast every 97.5 seconds for it to be worthwhile. The problem is trying to find a fight were I both had mana problems and had opportunity to use dispersion every minute and a half without suffering a DPS loss. If you're interrupting DPS this often you're looking at a 2% DPS loss. That's a pretty hefty price considering interrupting every 97.5 seconds with my stats would only make Dispersion equal to SW:P, not better.


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    No no, The passive thing is a buff to rogues I was talking about they discussed how they are making most of the 2 first tier of subtlety passive, I know how the mastery works, Classes like arms warriors have a shit tone of PvP ability even if they are specced PvE for example. excluding the health regen PvP specific talents. I think they need to give all the classes PvP viability without speccing for it along with improvements to each one in talents. So you can pvp and not have to worry about respeccing. Or to fix the whole thing all together give a tri talent tree option so everyone can have a PvP spec if they are hybrids. If Pure gets more DPS Hybrids need a perk (don't say the ability to heal or tank, that's not a perk, that's an annoyance if you hate both).
    Source? They've discussed those being very viable candidates for mastery, but I haven't seen anything regarding those being folded into becoming baseline. The only thing close is the upcoming change to Stealth. That's not a buff at max level though, that's only a buff to leveling characters.

    As far as Warriors it's very hard to make that argument considering first that their PVP builds are off the PVE arms builds by at least 15 points and that their top PVE DPS spec right now is Fury by a wide margin on most fights. Also if you don't care about your 'hybrid' classes other roles, then you are a pure class. The 'suffering' is the viability of specs for hybrids in PVP, not the talent system. Of course to argue that you'll also need to argue that Holy should have a place in PVP. Good luck.

  5. #45

    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    @ Harky - You're right.. both Weena and I forgot the "5"!

  6. #46

    Re: Shadow's new glyph slot?

    Fuck im bad at maths :<

    Thanks for fixing that up.
    Priest - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Weenalol
    Druid - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Weenah
    DK - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Jubei%27Thos&n=Weenalol

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