How importint Is Def Cap in Heroics?

[Texco]

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He was implying dcap is nothing and the healer is bad
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Catch my drift buddy?

also, read my edit.

Well buddy, he said he'd only tank when a proper tank couldn't be found so he's not running around begging to be carried through heroics.
Still all you ever hear is WotLK is too easy/boring/made for retards, and that's generally directed towards raids. People hardly bother gearing up in normals and head straight to heroics, was always like that from the start of Wrath.
I started tanking when my guild had issues finding tanks, all I had was some PVP gear and BoE blues and epics from AH, so was way under the def cap, low avoidance and low health pool and the healer was a heroic/naxx10 geared Paladin and we had no problems with heroics and AOE pulls.
So while the def cap is there for a reason, it's not essential for heroics but not to be ignored.

[Fårikål]

I think people are overreacting quite a bit. He's simply asking how essential it is. He's not insulting your mother.

I healed my 484 def warrior-friend through several heroics on my priest alt without trouble. I'm a bit overgeared, but I never had any trouble at all. If I had gear from heroics and thereabouts it would probably be a challenge, but not impossible.

The problem with not having 540 defense is simply that you *can* get unlucky, but there is no golden rule saying "if you don't have 540 defense, you die".

Good luck getting defensecapped, though, it's important to remove the chance of being crit! Atleast if you plan to tank higher stuff.

[DaveTheHunter]

I've said it many times before:

Skill > Gear

When I hit 80 (5 days after wotlk release), the hardcore guild I was in at the time would chain run heroics. I did this tanking in my sunwell gear so I was far from defense capped. Sure, we had the occasional wipe, but we powered through numerous heroics daily till we started naxx week 2 after release. Which, btw, we cleared with me being a few points under 540 the whole way.

The simple answer to your question is no, its not necessary.

The more complex answer is that it depends on the skill level of everyone in the group.

[parkerdj26]

It's not important at all. My DK hit 80 a week after xpac came out. Rolled my first heroic as soon as I hit 80, not even tank spec, with a healer who only hit 80 2 or 3 days before me. I did switch up to a tank spec after.

Also, keep in mind there was no defense rune or sigil back then too. DKs also had incredible avoidance back then as well. My tanking gear consisted of whatever tanking blues I could buy at honored with various factions, or from quest items (up to Zul'drak as I hit 80 there), with savage saronite gear to fill the gaps. I think I was at about 460 to 480 to start with a HP pool of 22k. I even tanked 25 man Naxx under the cap and we did just fine (I think I was about 510 defense when I started raiding).

Level 80 beginning end game is just that easy. Your healer was just terrible. Healing a DK and druid requires a bit of a different style than healing a warrior or pally too, as having a shield makes a difference in how you take damage. Could be that he never healed a shieldless tank before.

I am a DK tank I do believe you are fibbing. Also I do believe you are mistaken in "shieldless", because a Shield doesn't make that much difference besides the extra armor which frost presence makes up for. "shield block" mitigates a small amount of damage and is helpful with groups of mobs but offers little in regards to boss tanking.

It's very easy to defense cap as a DK being as the weapon enchant offers 25 blanket defense (not rating) That brings you up to 475. If you are dual wield tanking, you deserve to die. You can only dual wield while tanking if you're in very high end gear, and even then it's not advisable because of the amount of hit you need to make up for the missing. In his gear he wouldn't even be able to hold aggro while dual wielding.

So, 475 with weapon enchant, plus Daunting pieces which are cheap +Saronite Pieces which are cheap, you should be hitting right around or over 540 defense cap and have about 20-22khp. Which if you gem other items you'll have over 20-22khp. I was at 24khp and able to do Reg ToC farm for gear when I hit 80.

His healer wasn't terribad because the tank was under the cap. I ran H UP with 34khp and forgot I just switched weapons dropping my defense down to 517. When I grabbed 4 mobs my health was dropping like mad because each time they all swatted one of them would crit doing a total of about 13-17k damage. What healer can heal 17k per 4 seconds between swats. That's like 3k-4khps. It's just not realistic to ask in a heroic.

Now, maybe back when you did it people used CC so you only fought 1-2 mobs cutting that in half, which is reasonable. But now when people want to AoE pull everything, it isn't right, especially how easy it is to hit the cap.

[Kovak]

Considering the fact my warrior tanked first heroic in ~full t6 I had like 19k UB hp and naturally,nowhere near def cap I would say 'defcap' for heroics is relatively useless.The instance was halls of lightning and only boss we wiped on was loken,due to not understanding the aoe dmg of the encounter at that time.The whole group had dinged 80 within last 48hours and everyone was 90% lvl 70 geared.Still only boss that really felt like omg was the first one,who was probably the most hard hitting(physical dmg) heroic boss before toc release,While he got his lightning buff on and in battle stance ofc.I had to be one my toes since his autoswing+ms could take like 60% of my hp pool back then but overall the healer kept me up fairly easily.My dk started tanking heroics with 22k ub(tho I had def cap too,with full crafted blues) and didn't encounter any survivability probs...it was after first sets of DK nerfs too.

In my opinion stantard heroics are all about having HP...only place where you might actually want some 'real' tanking gear eg. naxx10+badge reward items is toc5man on hc,the first boss might deal some pretty nasty dmg for being 'just 5man' encounter.

[Omedon]

Hey there.

I'm going to try, like a few of the people posting here, to help you as best I can, as a proud, experienced DW DK tank that does mostly 5-man instances, due to time constraints and guild size.

The answer to your question is multifaceted. Observing the hierarchy of 5-man heroics is critical in assaulting them "while gearing", particularly if this gearing phase involves approaching the defense cap. UK and Nexus are great starting instances and can be reasonably knocked over pre def-cap, while the Culling of Stratholme is not.

There is tremendous credence to the advice given here to *not* look past level 80 normal instances. Pre Def cap, you are best off sticking to low end heroics and 80 normals.

There is one element to answering you that cannot be overlooked: The PUG Vs Friend/Guildie factor. All valid advice goes out the window the second you enter LFG, because any guildelines given here of "how to tank pre def cap" could fall apart the second you meet a PUG that holds you to your "responsibility" to be def capped before imposing on their time. My advice is to get Def capped before PUGing, it's that simple. I hate to say it, but it's true. Most non-tanks only know two things about a tank: "How much health do you have, are you def-capped", and expecting a devoted healer/DPS to know more than that is often asking too much. There is a binary line in there somewhere (def cap) and you will sit on one side or the other.

If you are still under def cap, here are my pieces of advice for you:

1) Obviously, this is your primary focus until it is rectified.

2) Group mainly with friends and guildies.

3) If you dual wield, the argent tournament's Teldrasil axes are a godsend. (swords for horde?)

4) Rune of the nerubian carapace coming with 3.3 will be your new best friend.

5) Signet of the pantheon, off of Loken (normal only) is a big help.

6) No one can tell you where to spend your emblems, even when you earn them DPSing. Buy tank gear this way!

To bring this around to the question that opened the thread: How important is def cap? Important enough to care about, crucial if you look outside your close friends and guildies that are willing to help you gear. I always stress to my guildies that, especially for the 5-man demographic (we are bigger than most people realize ), tanking and healing do not make good offspecs, as these lone rangers have no one to pick up their "slack" in their specific department, and you want every gear oppurtunity to up your game. If you like it enough, you might want to start classifying tanking as your main spec.

Hope all that helps.

[Bigsilly]

Why do people STILL refer to 535/540 as a CAP on defense. It is merely the rating at which you become un-crittable. Stacking defense over 540 is still VERY beneficial in high end raiding. Currently, there is no Defense "cap".

[Omedon]

Why do people STILL refer to 535/540 as a CAP on defense. It is merely the rating at which you become un-crittable. Stacking defense over 540 is still VERY beneficial in high end raiding. Currently, there is no Defense "cap".

Most people hover around 540 as best they can due to how heavilly diminishing returns have sunk into defense by the time you hit 540, and your gear budget is often spent better elsewhere, but yes, going over 540 is not useless.

[Findinnan]

DK?? That is 99% of the explanation of why this question was asked. Stop feeding the stereotype.

[kbtdadap]

I think ppl like the OP asking these questions are the reason ppl hate dks. I mean he seems to lack any knowledge on playing the game. Imho he prolly is just as bad at dps as he is at tanking. I wouldn't let him in my grp.
Anyways, no def cap isnt all that important if your healer wants to work a little harder and possibly wipe and cost everyone money for repairs. If everyone in group is down for whatever and not wanting a quick couple badges, by all means go ahead.

[Larkspur]

Getting to 535 before offering yourself to tank pugs is generally a good idea just so you don't get into retarded arguments or look like a jerkass to your healers.

That's about it.

[Shamb]

I'm new to tanking and I've been running heroics as DPS to get gear, however now and then we can't get a tank so I step up. I never had problems holding ag or dying, that is until the night before last. I was running with a healer I'd bever run with (at least not while I was tanking) and I kept dying. Everyone blamed my not being def capped, but if that is true why was that the first time I've had that problem?

Edit: My def is currently 485

Holy shit... How important being uncrittable is ? let's see... do you at least know what crit are ? You know those nasty 200% dmg attack you receive ? Those are crits...

With 485 in heroics I'd kick you before even entering the instance... Reaching 535 defense is VERY easy, and it is by FAR the most important thing for a tank.

It's actually more of a requirement...

So stop being lazy and get yourself some BS crafted tank gear, or quest gear and put stoneskin gargoyle enchant on your weapon...

[Mith]

On my tank alt I'm not crit immune(I have like 500ish), but I have like 29k hp if I include my selfbuff, so far I've tanked every heroic and onyxia without problems. Most heroics you should be able to do wearing pvp gear instead(if you have that).

Sometimes poor players point fingers. Don't worry about it tbh, just get another group with decent players and it will be no problem.

[Mudkiper]

Work on crafted items, remember the Resilience DOES effect your chance to be crit in PvE, farming BG's for PvP is a good idea if you don't have the gold to afford to craft yourself in epix - Including the stam/resi level 70 shoulder enchant.

But i've healed a ret paladin through a heroic with no problems at all, so it depends on the healer, my druid has 3.3K SP unbuffed with idol/trinket's stacked.

Presume your a DK since its in the DK section, use this macro to see what your chance of not being crit is:

/run local resilience=999; local defense_rating=999; print("You are "..((((400+25+(defense_rating/4.92))*0.04)-16)+(resilience*0.0121951219512195121951219)).."% less likely to be crit. (The crit cap is 5.6%)");

Change the '999' values in: local resilience=999; local defense_rating=999, to your resilience and defense RATING (not your defense).

[rabbimojo]

Regarding the run where you kept wiping and got blamed, the answer is simple: Use recount, check what hits you took.

If you were getting crit when you wiped, chances are good the wipes are your fault.
If you weren't taking crits that pull, then something else is the problem.

Crit immunity is a seriously nice thing to have, so nice it's probably mandatory. That said, you -can- tank through crits, and be healed through them, but you're expecting a lot more from your healers (and dps) than most think is reasonable.

Why not just get crit immune? It doesn't take that much effort, and you won't have to face these situations.

[Animalityy]

lol...just lol :-X

[Larkspur]

And yes, sure. You CAN easily tank up to easy raid content (like Onyxia) while still crittable.

That doesn't mean you should be doing it. :x

[Stevegasm]

I am a DK tank I do believe you are fibbing. Also I do believe you are mistaken in "shieldless", because a Shield doesn't make that much difference besides the extra armor which frost presence makes up for. "shield block" mitigates a small amount of damage and is helpful with groups of mobs but offers little in regards to boss tanking.

It's very easy to defense cap as a DK being as the weapon enchant offers 25 blanket defense (not rating) That brings you up to 475. If you are dual wield tanking, you deserve to die. You can only dual wield while tanking if you're in very high end gear, and even then it's not advisable because of the amount of hit you need to make up for the missing. In his gear he wouldn't even be able to hold aggro while dual wielding.

So, 475 with weapon enchant, plus Daunting pieces which are cheap +Saronite Pieces which are cheap, you should be hitting right around or over 540 defense cap and have about 20-22khp. Which if you gem other items you'll have over 20-22khp. I was at 24khp and able to do Reg ToC farm for gear when I hit 80.

His healer wasn't terribad because the tank was under the cap. I ran H UP with 34khp and forgot I just switched weapons dropping my defense down to 517. When I grabbed 4 mobs my health was dropping like mad because each time they all swatted one of them would crit doing a total of about 13-17k damage. What healer can heal 17k per 4 seconds between swats. That's like 3k-4khps. It's just not realistic to ask in a heroic.

Now, maybe back when you did it people used CC so you only fought 1-2 mobs cutting that in half, which is reasonable. But now when people want to AoE pull everything, it isn't right, especially how easy it is to hit the cap.

I am not bullshitting at all. Why would I? I have no reason to lie on a forum. The OP wants to know something, I'll tell him and back it up with my experience. AOE tanked everything, and nothing went wrong, unless it was a new fight that had a trick or two (Loken immediately comes to mind). People stopped using CC at 70 when the 3.0 patch came out and AOE tanking became easy. Though I have been playing this game long enough where CC was essential and I actually miss how much strat was involved in 5 mans back then .

He is in a hell of a lot of a better position than I was to be geared good enough to tank a heroic. Back in November 08, it was near impossible to get a reasonably priced crafted piece of tank gear. Only 4 or 5 days into the xpac release everybody was running heroics like crazy, and gearing up fast. I wasn't about to spend my time farming the few nodes available when I could run heroics and get better gear anyway. His gear is more than likely light years ahead of mine when I started tanking heroics, because of the available gear. He has the option of enchanting his weapon with defense. He doesn't have to worry about parry hasting either. Yet, my healers had no trouble keeping me alive, while that one he's asking about did have problems. Having been one of the first DKs on my server to hit 80, I did play with our most skilled players too.

Then again, he could be a terrible tank as well. Not facing mobs to his front, or letting too much other mobs get away, resulting in DPS getting hurt, resulting in the healer having too much to do, not throwing up AMS when there's an incoming big spell. Even if the pull is huge, IBF has such a short cooldown that you can use it just about every pull. Or he could spec unholy and have bone shield to fill in the gaps as well. Maybe his single target DPS isn't focus firing properly, and causing pulls to take longer than they should. Basically not having the wherewithal to pop a cooldown, ability, or whatever when trouble happens.

It is ideal to be uncrittable though, but it's not necessary for heroics. Maybe TOC.

[Gibalt]

One the one hand I see you (the OP) sighing at how much def rating you still need, and on the other hand you're gemming for strength.. Does not compute..

There's no reason at all to not be defense (crit) capped. Maybe for a couple of days after dinging, but certainly not for much longer. Get some Wyrmrest Accord rep, some Argent Crusade rep and you're set.

Also, try a two-hander with the Stoneskin Gargoyle rune on it, instant 25 defense (not rating!).

One last thing, how on earth do you keep agro from all the "ridiculously overgearing" dps you group with? If I didn't know any better I'd say you're just trolling.

[Texco]

Why do people STILL refer to 535/540 as a CAP on defense. It is merely the rating at which you become un-crittable. Stacking defense over 540 is still VERY beneficial in high end raiding. Currently, there is no Defense "cap".

Yes everyone knows, it's just the term people use.