Thread: Crit cap?

  1. #1

    Crit cap?

    Ok so I've been doing a lot of reading about how the roll-style combat system works, and got to thinking; is there a possibility of having too much crit? It seems like if you are hit and expertise capped while attacking from behind, dodge, block, parry and miss, as well as glancing blows should be removed from the hit table. This would mean that the only two possibilities for an attack would be a hit or a crit. If this is correct, then there is no crit cap for white swings if you are hit and expertise capped while attacking from behind.

    Similarly, a yellow attack cannot be parried and cannot be a glancing blow by default. This means that with the hit and expertise cap while attacking from behind, dodge and miss should also be removed from the roll table. This would mean that there is no crit cap on special attacks either.

    Basically I'm just looking for one answer: Am I right? Or is there a crit cap even when expertise and hit capped while attacking from behind?

  2. #2
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton
    Ok so I've been doing a lot of reading about how the roll-style combat system works, and got to thinking; is there a possibility of having too much crit? It seems like if you are hit and expertise capped while attacking from behind, dodge, block, parry and miss, as well as glancing blows should be removed from the hit table. This would mean that the only two possibilities for an attack would be a hit or a crit. If this is correct, then there is no crit cap for white swings if you are hit and expertise capped while attacking from behind.

    Similarly, a yellow attack cannot be parried and cannot be a glancing blow by default. This means that with the hit and expertise cap while attacking from behind, dodge and miss should also be removed from the roll table. This would mean that there is no crit cap on special attacks either.

    Basically I'm just looking for one answer: Am I right? Or is there a crit cap even when expertise and hit capped while attacking from behind?
    You cannot remove Glancing Blows from the combat table. You cannot have to much crit in the sense that you reach 100% Crit- You CAN say that you have too much crit in terms of not allocating it's "item points" into more useful stats (Agil, SP, STR, etc), due to DR on Crit.

  3. #3

    Re: Crit cap?

    So Ronark we meet again :P for some reason I've been looking around and ineffectively can't find a chart or anything saying what the actual DR rate of crit is. I realize that with 24% chance of a glancing blow on white hits that the "crit cap" is 76%, but if I could get a clarification of the crit rating DR curve, that would be amazingly helpful. Not trying to ask too much of you or anything haha.

    And also, I was wondering whether a nice balance of haste wasn't something to aim for? I've always been in the school of thought that crit+str+whatever other stat is on the plate is the best way to gear, but I've been thinking about the healthiness of a nice balance of crit/haste/armorpen (i know it's supposed to be terrible but bare with me). Seeing as white swings and Seal of Corruption damage account for around 40% of our total damage done, that's 40% of our damage effected by haste, while accounting for CS, DS and white swings, that's another 40% of our damage. Yes, I realize that 100% of our damage is effected by STR and Crit, I know. I am thinking that maybe a balanced "rating" diet, if you will, would be the best for increasing damage.

    What's your take on it?

  4. #4

    Re: Crit cap?

    Crit has the cap of 75% before it stops affecting your white attacks. But of course, there is limiting (sort of diminishing) returns on Crit Rating. The more crit you have, the less likely it increases your DPS. (Exception to this rule? FFB or TtW/F mages with Hot Streak).

    For example, going from 25-26% is a 4% increase over your current crit, but 50-51 is only 2%. It's less value overall, when you factor in how much more could be gained by linear scaling stats, such as Strength (or to a lesser degree, haste. But it's terrible anyways).
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  5. #5

    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    1)For example, going from 25-26% is a 4% increase over your current crit, but 50-51 is only 2%. It's less value overall,
    2)when you factor in how much more could be gained by linear scaling stats, such as Strength (or to a lesser degree, haste. But it's terrible anyways).
    That example is a little off..:
    1) from 25-26 is usually in the range of 125%-126% -> 0.8% increase and from 150-151 -> 0.66% (that is if you're assuming 100% crit mod and that's also why FFB mages favor crit because their mod is +2xx%)
    2) both stats are scaling in a linear way, but strength usually requires less to do more and the base value for strength is lower, it's more like this:
    4000 base ap (Weapon or base damage from spells) so if you're going from 4000 ap to 4100 ap it is a 1.25% increase.
    PS: with t9 2p crit scales exponentially (it increases the +160% crit modifier from cs/ds/judgement to up to 220%)


    BTT: There are several softcaps:
    0% crit = Exorcism (evil) softcap
    50% crit = Hammer of Wrath softcap
    76% = White hit softcap.
    White hit softcap is still too high to reach and Hammer of Wrath softcap is not something to worry about.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Crit cap?

    There is no crit cap i guess , and over 75% works just fine . Just remember Loatheb were mages especialy ( me for example , 95% crit with the debuff ) . Every hit was a crit , even if it was a 4-7 min fight , my crit was around 98% because of the waiting time for the 1st spore. So yes u can go to 80-90% crit and 9 of 10 hits will be crits

  7. #7

    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by adibandi
    There is no crit cap i guess , and over 75% works just fine . Just remember Loatheb were mages especialy ( me for example , 95% crit with the debuff ) . Every hit was a crit , even if it was a 4-7 min fight , my crit was around 98% because of the waiting time for the 1st spore. So yes u can go to 80-90% crit and 9 of 10 hits will be crits
    Read it again:
    Crit has the cap of 75% before it stops affecting your white attacks
    it stops affecting your white attacks
    your white attacks
    Now go back to the mage forums, or lern2melee harder.
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  8. #8
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    You cannot remove Glancing Blows from the combat table. You cannot have to much crit in the sense that you reach 100% Crit- You CAN say that you have too much crit in terms of not allocating it's "item points" into more useful stats (Agil, SP, STR, etc), due to DR on Crit.
    1) Sense you can not remove glanzing blows which is like 30% so anything over 70% crit is useless.

    2) anything over 50% crit fully raid buffed every .01% over 50% has diminishing marginal utility untill you can get to like 75%.

    Ergo, once your getting to over 50% crit reliablely on like ur white hits,

    go for gear with like hate on it.

  9. #9

    Re: Crit cap?

    The average player shouldnt worry about a crit cap.

    Theres a very strange combination of very very awesome gear needed to reach it and people who have the possibility should have the knowledge that going compleltely for crit is stupid.
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  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Nienniora's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astray
    The average player shouldnt worry about a crit cap.

    Theres a very strange combination of very very awesome gear needed to reach it and people who have the possibility should have the knowledge that going compleltely for crit is stupid.
    i dont see why anyone should worry about crit cap
    with the gear we have (or the one we you will get in ICC) i dont think we you will get near it

  11. #11
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton
    And also, I was wondering whether a nice balance of haste wasn't something to aim for? I've always been in the school of thought that crit+str+whatever other stat is on the plate is the best way to gear, but I've been thinking about the healthiness of a nice balance of crit/haste/armorpen (i know it's supposed to be terrible but bare with me).... I am thinking that maybe a balanced "rating" diet, if you will, would be the best for increasing damage.

    What's your take on it?
    I'm not Ronark, and by no means as well versed a theorycrafter as others, but here's my take on it:

    Haste is bad at increasing overall damage because it increases the damage per second of your white swings without increasing the damage they hit for, which means it has no benefit to your Crusader Strike or Divine Storm abilities because they scale off of weapon damage and not weapon damage per second. It also has no impact on the amount that your Seal of Vengeance/Corruption, Exorcism, or Judgement abilities hit for, since they scale off of AP (and benefit from critical strike rating). It does have the side effect of increasing the number of Seal of Vengeance/Corruption procs you get, but see below for additional information on that.

    With a 3.5 base speed weapon, you'd need 417 haste rating to reduce that by half a second to 3.0 seconds - or 341 haste rating with the Swift Retribution talent - which would only give you an extra 3 swings per minute.

    Considering that 341 haste is a relatively large amount to get from plate DPS gear, I'd say that a "healthy balance" between crit, haste and armor penetration is going to result in an amount of haste too low to make any difference to your swings per minute (perhaps 1 extra swing), and therefore not affect your overall DPS much at all.

    This is where an example would be useful, but I don't have one.

  12. #12
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardolan
    I'm not Ronark, and by no means as well versed a theorycrafter as others, but here's my take on it:

    Haste is bad at increasing overall damage because it increases the damage per second of your white swings without increasing the damage they hit for, which means it has no benefit to your Crusader Strike or Divine Storm abilities because they scale off of weapon damage and not weapon damage per second. It also has no impact on the amount that your Seal of Vengeance/Corruption, Exorcism, or Judgement abilities hit for, since they scale off of AP (and benefit from critical strike rating). It does have the side effect of increasing the number of Seal of Vengeance/Corruption procs you get, but see below for additional information on that.

    With a 3.5 base speed weapon, you'd need 417 haste rating to reduce that by half a second to 3.0 seconds - or 341 haste rating with the Swift Retribution talent - which would only give you an extra 3 swings per minute.

    Considering that 341 haste is a relatively large amount to get from plate DPS gear, I'd say that a "healthy balance" between crit, haste and armor penetration is going to result in an amount of haste too low to make any difference to your swings per minute (perhaps 1 extra swing), and therefore not affect your overall DPS much at all.

    This is where an example would be useful, but I don't have one.
    The reason Haste was so "godly" for (Horde) Paladins in TBC was due to the limiting number of instant attacks. Back in the day, a good chunk of your DPS (maybe 50-70%) was from White hits and Blood hits, thus increasing haste increased both of these more than stacking Strength.

    Also note that Haste does have an additional benefit, albit a small one: It reduces the length of the GCD when casting spells, i.e. Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, FoL procs, Hand spells, etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nienniora
    i dont see why anyone should worry about crit cap
    with the gear we have (or the one we you will get in ICC) i dont think we you will get near it
    Unless it is a gimmick fight like Lotheas, that is; at 50% consistant Crit, Both CS and Judgement will take priority over HoW- This is even more the case with 2pc T9 since the bonus (and damage) of CS/DS/Judgement crits increase.

  13. #13

    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    1) Sense you can not remove glanzing blows which is like 30% so anything over 70% crit is useless.
    Glancing blows have a 25% chance to occur on auto attack. Thus the crit cap for whites is 75%. Special attacks ahave no glancing chance.
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  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardolan
    With a 3.5 base speed weapon, you'd need 417 haste rating to reduce that by half a second to 3.0 seconds - or 341 haste rating with the Swift Retribution talent - which would only give you an extra 3 swings per minute.

    Considering that 341 haste is a relatively large amount to get from plate DPS gear, I'd say that a "healthy balance" between crit, haste and armor penetration is going to result in an amount of haste too low to make any difference to your swings per minute (perhaps 1 extra swing), and therefore not affect your overall DPS much at all.

    This is where an example would be useful, but I don't have one.
    Ronark and I had a very long thread a month or so ago about Haste Pots. Calculating when using a Speed Pot would be best. I will admit that I was naive about the workings of haste when considering the different modifiers.

    I was under the impression that Speed Pots were best used when not under the affects of Bloodlust/Heroism. I was proven wrong in several different ways including proving myself wrong. We calculated the affects of BL/Hero with Windfury, Swift Retribution, Speed Pots... you name it. All together and each separately to see how each affected the next.

    High levels, but within reason, of haste on your gear is a significant DPS boost. It may not appear so when you are standing in Org or Ironforge with your own Haste Rating and Swift Retribution. I am referring to those two plus Windfury/Imp Icy Talons and Bloodlust. That 3.5 Weapon will be swinging faster than every 1.9 seconds.

    Considering that Haste affects 2 out of my top 3 damaging attacks that are accounting for 40% of my DPS, I'd say that haste is not the super bad stat that everyone believes. Numbers don't lie. Open your eyes.

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  15. #15
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    High levels, but within reason, of haste on your gear is a significant DPS boost. It may not appear so when you are standing in Org or Ironforge with your own Haste Rating and Swift Retribution. I am referring to those two plus Windfury/Imp Icy Talons and Bloodlust. That 3.5 Weapon will be swinging faster than every 1.9 seconds.

    Considering that Haste affects 2 out of my top 3 damaging attacks that are accounting for 40% of my DPS, I'd say that haste is not the super bad stat that everyone believes. Numbers don't lie. Open your eyes.
    Last time I was going thruogh the BiS gear list with all possible haste buffs (Hero/BL, Potion, IIT/WF) and Justicebringer weapon, you end up with about 1.6 weapon speed.

    That being said, the reason Haste is precieved as being bad is because you canno't accumulate enough on your own to make it worthwhile without these buffs.

  16. #16

    Re: Crit cap?

    Table is :

    Hit
    Crit
    Dodge
    Parry
    Block
    Glancing
    Miss

    By being hit and expertise capped (and attacking from behind) for an attack, it's reduced to :

    Hit
    Crit
    Glancing

    There is a 24% chance for Glancing blows to occur, which cannot be reduced. So, the crit cap is the point to which you remove HIT from the table : 76%. Now, considering a raid boss, you've got a minus 4.8% crit chance. The crit cap is then 80.6%.

    PS : Please note some things here :
    - Spells (Exo, HW) are on a different table, they only suffer a 3% malus
    - This 80.6% cap does not take into consideration any buff/debuff
    -
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  17. #17
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    Considering that Haste affects 2 out of my top 3 damaging attacks that are accounting for 40% of my DPS, I'd say that haste is not the super bad stat that everyone believes. Numbers don't lie. Open your eyes.
    How can you justify haste as being a good stat by calculating a swing time of 1.9 seconds through the use of every possible haste generating ability, including one useable once per fight that lasts only 40 seconds? That is like saying spell power would be a good stat if there was a bloodlust-like ability that increased spell power by huge amounts for a short period of time. Sure your dps would increase but it doesn't mean you will all of a sudden want it on gear. In order to generate a swing time as low as 1.9 seconds without the use of all of those cooldowns and abilities, haste as a stat would have to decrease swing time by double, or triple what it does now, and then it might become as decent as you make it out to be. That will never happen so it will remain low on stat priority until the stat changes or our mechanics change again.

    You're right, the numbers dont lie. Bloodlust is good. Haste is not.
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  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose
    How can you justify haste as being a good stat by calculating a swing time of 1.9 seconds through the use of every possible haste generating ability, including one useable once per fight that lasts only 40 seconds? That is like saying spell power would be a good stat if there was a bloodlust-like ability that increased spell power by huge amounts for a short period of time. Sure your dps would increase but it doesn't mean you will all of a sudden want it on gear. In order to generate a swing time as low as 1.9 seconds without the use of all of those cooldowns and abilities, haste as a stat would have to decrease swing time by double, or triple what it does now, and then it might become as decent as you make it out to be. That will never happen so it will remain low on stat priority until the stat changes or our mechanics change again.

    You're right, the numbers dont lie. Bloodlust is good. Haste is not.
    I think you are over-exaggerating here. My point, exactly as I said it, was that haste is not a super bad stat. That's all I was saying. I only made my post because one of the posters above mine had said that haste was bad when it, in fact, is not.

    Hit 210 (38)
    Str 194
    Exp 123
    Crit 106
    Agil 100
    Haste 83
    ArPen 75
    AP 76

    While not being one of the top notch stats, there are worse stats than haste. Assuming you are already capped on hit and expertise, you are left with Strength (194), Crit (106), and Agility (100) that appear above Haste. If only looking at plate gear, those items will have a combination of Str, Crit, Haste, and ArP. If you choose to or are allowed to use leather, you can add Agi to the list of possible stats but that comes at a cost of AP instead of Str(not counting sockets).

    Our BiS list according to EJ has right around 400 haste and 150 ArP. Its your third stat, essentially, because most of your gear will be plate and has more value than ArP. That's all I was really saying. With most of our attacks being instant, it doesn't provide a huge bonus, but with Seal of Corruption and Melee attacks being 2 of our biggest DPS sources, it is still useful.

    Be as argumentative as you want, but the fact remains that haste is not a bad stat. There are better, but you would be foolish to completely avoid it.

    EDIT: Even if you rule out the use of Speed Potions and Bloodlust, the haste that I have plus Swift Retribution and Windfury Totem give me an attack speed of ~2.5-2.6 seconds. All are haste effects and they scale pretty well together. You would not achieve an attack speed anywhere near this fast with just Swift Ret and WF Totem should you choose to completely avoid haste. That's not terribly smart, now is it?

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  19. #19
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Crit cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard
    Table is :

    Hit
    Crit
    Dodge
    Parry
    Block
    Glancing
    Miss

    By being hit and expertise capped (and attacking from behind) for an attack, it's reduced to :

    Hit
    Crit
    Glancing

    There is a 24% chance for Glancing blows to occur, which cannot be reduced. So, the crit cap is the point to which you remove HIT from the table : 76%. Now, considering a raid boss, you've got a minus 4.8% crit chance. The crit cap is then 80.6%.

    PS : Please note some things here :
    - Spells (Exo, HW) are on a different table, they only suffer a 3% malus
    - This 80.6% cap does not take into consideration any buff/debuff
    -
    While it is trivial, note that lower weapon skill results in a higher chance for glancing blows.

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