Imp Shadowform

[Thragh]

Well it seems like someone beat me to the punch, you are wrong. You can go oom multidotting Ulduar mostly, snobolds, after the wyrms resubmerge. All the portals, volcanoes and adds in LJ. Multidotting on Twin Valkyrs, and not so much on Anub.

[Deyus]

I'm wondering just where your 70% maths has come from here. Assuming in example 1 - single target dps. I think it's pretty safe to assume 100% uptime on IST now that mind flay is on it.

100% uptime is probably out of the question given current gear. MF only has a 50% chance to proc IST when it crits (as opposed to 100% for MB / SWD). Most priests with the talent have IST up around 60-70% of the time when dps-ing a single target. If you're running higher than normal haste you might approach 75%.

[Pokchop]

Why not. It's not like you can really seriously spend them elsewhere.

[Veyne]

Not only will it be 100% necessary in 3.3 (where Imp. SF causes DoTs to be affected by haste), but enough raid encounters involve frequent splash damage that Imp. SF provides a significant DPS benefit, particularly to Mind Flay.

Um - DoTs being affected by haste comes in the standard Shadowform talent. It does not require Improved Shadowform - it's a built in part of Shadowform itself in 3.3

But, back on subject, Improved Shadowform plus a Paladin's Concentration aura (you'll almost always have at least three Paladins in a 25-man raid to give the three main Pally Auras, and occasional a doofus with Crusader Aura up as well - LOL), it givesyou a 100% immunity to push back, meaning your Mind Flay won't lose a tick at all.

It's very beneficial for fights that deal any sort of raid damage.

[Veyne]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Pushback

Happy fun reading!

I'm not sure this link provides any help, all it tells us, for Mind Flay, one of the biggest reasons we take Imp. Shadowform, is that:

A) Our mind flay IS susceptible to push back, and

B) Our dots and Mindflay do not cause push back to enemy targets' casts.

[Worshaka]

I'm wondering just where your 70% maths has come from here. Assuming in example 1 - single target dps. I think it's pretty safe to assume 100% uptime on IST now that mind flay is on it.

Combat log analysis, in another recent post someone posted 3 combat logs that showed their IST uptime between 60 to 70%.

Without starting too long of a lecture, I consider myself to be in a fairly well progressed guild - not hardcore, not scrubs, just doing quite well. I've seen all of Ulduar and ToTGC 10 hardmodes, and the majority of 25 man hardmodes, and I just have to say, aggro isn't an issue anywhere at all (and I don't spec into shadow affinity). Kologarn is the closest it comes, yet I do mind sear immediately when the arm falls and our tank manages to keep aggro on them all. It's purely based on your guild I suppose, but in my guild, the tanks are more than good enough.

I agree that for the current teir of content there isn't too much value in shadow affinity, however you point out an Uld encounter and I find it hard to believe that you didn't pull at least 1 add out of the AoE zone but immediately using MS. While that doesn't feel like aggro it does result in inferior raid DPS. I would also suggest your damage wasn't up to par for hard mode Hodir and General Vezax. The gimick damage buffs in those encounters place you well above tank threat if you can get near your theroetical maximum.

There's a few fights I can think of where my playstyle (normally multi-dotting) causes me mana problems, and where the mana from improved spirit tap definetly helps me. The two I can think of that spring to mind are two of my most recent ToTGC 25 runs - heroic beasts and heroic Jaraxxus. Management of DoTs on in phase 1: Snobolds and boss, phase 2: both worms and any snobolds if they are left and trying to time my shadowfiend to be off cooldown during crash in phase 3 means my mana is constantly up and down - a well timed dispersion in between burrows helps a lot but I'm well aware mana is still an issue in this fight.

I agree that Heroic Jaraxxus is probably the most mana intensive encounter and having IST for this encounter is beneficial but i'd like to point out in multi dotting situations IST is less effective because you prioritise dots and spend less casts on MB and MF than you would in a single target encounter. Because you cast these spells less your IST uptime is signficantly lower.

[KresnikHellfire]

I agree that for the current teir of content there isn't too much value in shadow affinity, however you point out an Uld encounter and I find it hard to believe that you didn't pull at least 1 add out of the AoE zone but immediately using MS. While that doesn't feel like aggro it does result in inferior raid DPS. I would also suggest your damage wasn't up to par for hard mode Hodir and General Vezax. The gimick damage buffs in those encounters place you well above tank threat if you can get near your theroetical maximum.

Well, you're sort of right. When we were doing Hodir Hardmode, I did actually contemplate speccing into shadow affinity - in the end, I didn't actually spec it and ended the fight on 18k dps (If I can find the parse from this, I'd gladly post it, I'll have a hunt around). I was actually on the top 3 in dps on that fight and didn't manage to pull aggro - and you are right, Shadow Affinity would probably have been beneficial on it (In fact, I'd go as far as to say that if we'd spent more than one night on it, I probably would have specced it). But as a general rule, 1 gimmick fight in Ulduar (I have never had aggro problems on Vexas hardmode, nor have I ever pulled aggro on Kologarn ever - it's been close though), doesn't justify the 3 points. Maybe if there are similar fights in ICC I'll spec purely for them, but again, it wouldn't be my general raiding spec.

I agree that Heroic Jaraxxus is probably the most mana intensive encounter and having IST for this encounter is beneficial but i'd like to point out in multi dotting situations IST is less effective because you prioritise dots and spend less casts on MB and MF than you would in a single target encounter. Because you cast these spells less your IST uptime is signficantly lower.

You are quite correct, however, IST (and perhaps even ST) will have SOME uptime on that fight, because there are periods of single target dps, and it's there that I find the mana return useful (along with the single-target dps, of course), whereas Shadow Affinity just isn't any use at all (Improved Vampiric Embrace may well be useful for self healing on it, the raid healing return is pretty poor).

I'm not saying these talents are useless, it's totally down to personal playstyle - but for me, my tanks have no problem at all keeping aggro bar one Ulduar gimmick fight (which you are quite right about) and therefore I'd much rather take an extra 20 or so spellpower crit proc than Shadow Affinity.

[harky]

I think discussing that IST doesn't have high uptime on multi-dot fights is rather silly. The only alternative is Focused Mind which is worth even less when multi-dotting. It's a moot point.

[draticus]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...XD66,wyJ,10596

I can go 5 minutes on a dummy without using dispersion for mana and I have imp VE and imp SF. My best damage on a dummy just before using dispersion is 4.2k, avg 4k. Average ilvl 229.

I dont know why anyone would take points out of IST or ISF before Focused mind.

[KresnikHellfire]

Just like to add here, we're working on TOTGC 25 twins today, and I found myself actually respeccing into improved VE, we're trying the doorway strategy therefore I don't need shadow reach, and the respec has brought me to 2k+ HPS, not bad

[Worshaka]

I think discussing that IST doesn't have high uptime on multi-dot fights is rather silly. The only alternative is Focused Mind which is worth even less when multi-dotting. It's a moot point.

I've been doing some testing comparisons between IST and Focused Mind and from my personal testing they are worth the same mp/5. I last 3mins 35sec to 45sec at full DPS burn on a target dummy with points in ST/IST and no Focused mind or no points in ST/IST and 3/3 Focused mind.

I also know that i'm reaching very close to the theoretical max DPS burn because my analysis showed my MB cast time just below 7.2 sec, MF ticks every 1.55sec and dot uptime is 98% for VT and SW:P with a 95% uptime on DP (DP clashes with MB somewhat regularly now that 2pc T9 stops any VT/MB conflicts).

We are also evaluating 5 points to 3 point so in terms of talent point effeciency focused mind is better, however there is a minimal dps bonus to ST/IST... basically the 2 extra points gives you about 15-17 SP which is a very lacklusture and i'm not sure it would be noticed in all honnesty.

So it boils down to if you can get some mileage out of talents like Shadow Affinity etc. There is a good case to say there isn't but I believe there is equally as good a case to say there is. As someone mentioned above it's a personal preference thing, there is no 100% correct answer and any tactic is a viable tactic in my book.

[Deyus]

Are you basing this on the time to run OOM at the dummy or some other factors also? Just trying to understand how you've carried out the test.

One other thing to note about ST / IST is that the uptime and Mp5 value of the proc will increase substantially in a raid situation. The crit / haste buffs increase your chance to proc, and kings / gift boost your spirit. I can see the two talents being roughly equal in terms of regen on a dummy with our current gear level, but believe IST jumps way ahead as our stats increase.

[harky]

Again it's a silly discussion. Focused Mind would need to be noticeably more regen than IST and you would need to be able to put 2 points into a DPS talent. IST is more regen in a raid situation (higher uptime, kings, etc) and there is no other talent that you can take that is any form of DPS increase. Shadow Affinity is worthless. You would need to be pulling somewhere in the 15k DPS range to need it at all in a raid with decent tanks. On top of that if there's any chance of you pulling aggro the Warlocks are dying first. They cause a larger percentage of their damage as threat than Shadow, do higher DPS than Shadow and they still don't take threat reducing talents. Even though theirs also increases range. :

So you've got a choice: Take 3 points and then 2 filler for a slight mana return gain, or take 3 filler, then 2 points which provide at least as much mana return as well as a small DPS gain.

Saying every tactic is a viable tactic is all fine and good, but when one is clearly better than another it comes off as foolish and bullheaded.

[Worshaka]

Are you basing this on the time to run OOM at the dummy or some other factors also? Just trying to understand how you've carried out the test.

One other thing to note about ST / IST is that the uptime and Mp5 value of the proc will increase substantially in a raid situation. The crit / haste buffs increase your chance to proc, and kings / gift boost your spirit. I can see the two talents being roughly equal in terms of regen on a dummy with our current gear level, but believe IST jumps way ahead as our stats increase.

Starting at full mana and measuring the time to go completely oom while self buffed only. Unfortunetly recount can't measure IST uptime... I might look for some way to do that to see if the uptime is substantially longer. I think the fact you have increased INT and Spirit in a raid situation is far more likely to impact the regen than a change in uptime although I concede that may be a contributing factor.

And for the other post claiming i'm bull headed etc... when I have something like a 3300 raid buffed SP number, 15sp is next to meaningless... in terms of raid dps it's so insubtantial that it is basically meaningless. I find it bull headed for someone to suggest that you must take ST/IST because it's black and white better than alternatives. I'm open minded enough to suggest that isn't the case, if you have that opinion I certainly wouldn't claim in black and white terms you are wrong. I would have a discussion mentioned that there is perhaps more benefit in place 5 talent points elsewhere. And a lot of that discussion becomes rather subjective not to mention very specfic.

All of it is somewhat of a mute point because in 3.3 I believe it's going to become a mandatory talent but up to 3.2 it certainly hasn't been despite what the larger spriest community think. I've certainly hit 6K dps without that talent which is at the higher end of what's possible.

So I respect your opinion and I say it has merit but there is merit in other strategies as well.

[harky]

Sometimes being open minded is not the correct decision. You're essentially saying '15 SP is meaningless', but how do you gem? If 15 SP is meaningless, then 4 SP is probably also meaningless. Do you take the time to use epic SP gems instead of blue ones? I mean hey, why don't you save yourself some money, you can switch three of your epic gems to blue gems. It's only 12 SP, it doesn't matter. Oh noes it's a slippery slope, SP doesn't matter, the titanic is sinking!

Seriously, arguments to moderation are rarely the proper choice outside of politics. IST provides equal, or better mana returns than Focused Mind. IST provides a small SP gain, while Focused Mind offers two free talent points. The only possible options for those points that can offer any DPS gain is Shadow Focus. Shadow Focus only increases DPS is you are threat capped and must stop casting as to not pull aggro. Looking at the DPS hierarchy Shadow Priest would be the third to last DPS class killed if this should happen. Looking at tank TPS however it's easy to note that tanks are currently putting out 20-30% more threat than top DPS. That number is almost double the TPS put out by Shadow. That means the two points Focused Mind saves you would provide zero additional DPS except in very specific encounters in which it may provide a short increase in DPS before the tanks stabilized at which point it would once again provide nothing. There is no fight in current content (including Ulduar, but not Naxx) where Shadow Focus provides a DPS gain on a boss. On a threat meter you would need to consistently be at 129% of a tanks threat and in danger of passing that mark for Shdow Focus to provide a DPS gain.

What you're arguing is that a strategy that provides no DPS gain in the vast majority of fights and equal or less mana returns is equal, or better than one which provides a minor DPS gain in all content and equal or more mana returns. I know most schools avoid the subject now days, but opinions can be and often are wrong.

[CaseyTheRetard]

Sometimes being open minded is not the correct decision. You're essentially saying '15 SP is meaningless', but how do you gem? If 15 SP is meaningless, then 4 SP is probably also meaningless. Do you take the time to use epic SP gems instead of blue ones? I mean hey, why don't you save yourself some money, you can switch three of your epic gems to blue gems. It's only 12 SP, it doesn't matter. Oh noes it's a slippery slope, SP doesn't matter, the titanic is sinking!

IST provides equal, or better mana returns than Focused Mind. IST provides a small SP gain, while Focused Mind offers two free talent points. The only possible options for those points that can offer any DPS gain is Shadow Focus. Shadow Focus only increases DPS is you are threat capped and must stop casting as to not pull aggro. Looking at the DPS hierarchy Shadow Priest would be the third to last DPS class killed if this should happen. Looking at tank TPS however it's easy to note that tanks are currently putting out 20-30% more threat than top DPS. That number is almost double the TPS put out by Shadow. That means the two points Focused Mind saves you would provide zero additional DPS except in very specific encounters in which it may provide a short increase in DPS before the tanks stabilized at which point it would once again provide nothing. There is no fight in current content (including Ulduar, but not Naxx) where Shadow Focus provides a DPS gain on a boss. On a threat meter you would need to consistently be at 129% of a tanks threat and in danger of passing that mark for Shdow Focus to provide a DPS gain.

What you're arguing is that a strategy that provides no DPS gain in the vast majority of fights and equal or less mana returns is equal, or better than one which provides a minor DPS gain in all content and equal or more mana returns. I know most schools avoid the subject now days, but opinions can be and often are wrong.

Your analogy to spellpower gems is meaningless; there is no alternative gem that provides less spellpower and useful utility. This is not the case for talent points.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Focused Mind is a better talent than IST, the two provide similar levels of mana point-for-point even with the minimal amount of spirit we have no matter how we try to avoid it. The argument here is over the differential utility provided by the talents in which we can invest those points: 0.4% DPS increase from IST, vs. survivability increase from Imp VE, vs. substantial situational DPS increase from Imp SF, vs. slight situational DPS increase from SA. Obviously the relative value of DPS and utility will vary from raider to raider depending on the composition of your raid.

From my experience:
I don't have SA now, but I did through all of Ulduar, and I can say that there were many situations where it enabled me to do more damage than I could have without it. It's not a question of being consistently above tank threat, but of ever being above tank threat. SA let me absolutely cut loose on Vezax and Hodir without the possibility of pulling threat, regardless of who happened to be tanking that attempt (Prot pally Vezax tank FTW!) SA let me immediately unload on adds before they were even tanked, without regard for how much threat I was accumulating before a tank got there. Remember, casting Fade is a DPS loss.

To(G)C has far fewer of those situations in which SA is useful, so for me the relative value of the utility of SA+2FM has become less than that of ST+IST. I don't, however, think you can make a blanket claim that 25 DPS is always for everyone better than 25% less threat. Maybe their tanks suck, who knows? SA is not an idiot-tagging talent for shadow priests as, e.g., Silent Resolve.

That said, you'll pry Imp VE from my cold, dead fingers.

[Thragh]

From my experience:
I don't have SA now, but I did through all of Ulduar, and I can say that there were many situations where it enabled me to do more damage than I could have without it. It's not a question of being consistently above tank threat, but of ever being above tank threat. SA let me absolutely cut loose on Vezax and Hodir without the possibility of pulling threat, regardless of who happened to be tanking that attempt (Prot pally Vezax tank FTW!) SA let me immediately unload on adds before they were even tanked, without regard for how much threat I was accumulating before a tank got there. Remember, casting Fade is a DPS loss.

If you tanks had half a brain cell you would never come close in General V, and if the had a full brain cell threat wouldn't be a problem on Hodir (IE let locks/mages go ape shit and pull aggro--->tank taunts---> Invis/SS--> Tank has aggro rest of the fight)

If you have any idea on the mechanics of threat, you would go /wrist. Like your name implies you are retarded and should jsut quit talking about stuff you don't know or fully comprehend.

[CaseyTheRetard]

If you tanks had half a brain cell you would never come close in General V, and if the had a full brain cell threat wouldn't be a problem on Hodir (IE let locks/mages go ape shit and pull aggro--->tank taunts---> Invis/SS--> Tank has aggro rest of the fight)

If you have any idea on the mechanics of threat, you would go /wrist. Like your name implies you are retarded and should jsut quit talking about stuff you don't know or fully comprehend.

Our mages and warlocks sucked, I was top damage on over 90% of our Hodir kills. The week after I dropped SA, we did a U10H to get some folks drakes that didn't have them, I pulled aggro on Vezax from a prot paladin - can't put out much threat with no mana. You can't expect perfect composition in 10-mans, which I'm sure many of the readers here do exclusively.

As I said, it's a mistake to assume that the ideal choices for your specific situation are ideal for all possible scenarios.

[harky]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Focused Mind is a better talent than IST, the two provide similar levels of mana point-for-point even with the minimal amount of spirit we have no matter how we try to avoid it. The argument here is over the differential utility provided by the talents in which we can invest those points: 0.4% DPS increase from IST, vs. survivability increase from Imp VE, vs. substantial situational DPS increase from Imp SF, vs. slight situational DPS increase from SA. Obviously the relative value of DPS and utility will vary from raider to raider depending on the composition of your raid.

This is where you lost me. You just mentioned Imp VE and Imp SF, both of which are taken with IST builds. The only talents that can increase DPS that you could take points out of ST/IST are Focused Mind and Shadow Affinity. The cookie cutter build in 3.2 is this: 13/0/57 +1. That one is usually tossed in Psychic Horror for a disarm. There are no survivability talents remaining. You would need to drop IST to get Focused Mind, which produces less mana return and no DPS return. SA is 100% useless in every fight that can be considered high end raiding. You can't get Imp SF... you already have it. You can't get Imp VE... you already have it.

Worshaka is arguing for a build that drops ST/IST just to pick up SA and Focused Mind. That means less DPS in all current progression and less mana return in a raid setting. It's a bad choice. There's no way around that and comparing to some goofy spec just to make IST look worse is not going to make the argument look any better.

[CaseyTheRetard]

This is where you lost me. You just mentioned Imp VE and Imp SF, both of which are taken with IST builds. The only talents that can increase DPS that you could take points out of ST/IST are Focused Mind and Shadow Affinity. The cookie cutter build in 3.2 is this: 13/0/57 +1. That one is usually tossed in Psychic Horror for a disarm. There are no survivability talents remaining. You would need to drop IST to get Focused Mind, which produces less mana return and no DPS return. SA is 100% useless in every fight that can be considered high end raiding. You can't get Imp SF... you already have it. You can't get Imp VE... you already have it.

Worshaka is arguing for a build that drops ST/IST just to pick up SA and Focused Mind. That means less DPS in all current progression and less mana return in a raid setting. It's a bad choice. There's no way around that and comparing to some goofy spec just to make IST look worse is not going to make the argument look any better.

Other people brought up Imp VE and Imp SF - which is the topic of the OP after all. I was addressing them as being possibilities for trading points amongst what we all know to be marginal talents. The remainder of my argument is specifically addressing the tradeoff of ST+IST vs. SA+FM, which I think we all agree is the only real question. In Ulduar, I think 16 DPS and slightly more mana from ST+IST wasn't as useful as 25% threat reduction from SA+FM. For people still progressing through Ulduar, I think that tradeoff needs to be made clear.

I couldn't agree with you more that the marginal benefit of 25ish DPS and slightly more mana from ST+IST is a better value than the threat reduction of SA+FM in To(G)C. There are no fights where threat is remotely an issue, given the lack of fights with crazy caster buffs and how poorly we have scaled. I wasn't trying to debunk your argument, only to caveat it.