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  1. #21

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos-
    Disc Priests will never take over the role of a Holy Priest. The whole garbage mentality that alot have adopted lately is "Lets spam a raid with shields for an entire fight. This makes us more useful than any raid healer". Holy priests still have the potential output on fights like Twins HM where shield spam will not keep up.
    On Twins HM, get some shadow or fire res gear, and go catch orbs instead.
    Disc priests are poor for that encounter as healers, just as they are godlike on Vezax HM.
    "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it."
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  2. #22

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Fixed. Disc is good if you know what you're doing. That's all.
    Sometimes you are really smart, other times you are just not. If you are assigned a role in raiding, you do that role, and there are rolls disc priest are not good at.

    But from your posts I can totaly see you doing w/e the hell you want.
    When people say "pls" just because its shorter then "please", I feel totally justified to say "No" just because its shorter then "Yes".

  3. #23

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    In principle we clearly have a scaling problem because PW:S is so important for us and only benefits from SP. But in practice our performance is determined by the damage profile of individual encounters.

    If ICC has a lot of spike damage, especially raid wide spikes then our slightly iffy scaling won't matter. If the damage is almost all smooth/continuous then we may well underperform.

    My biggest worry about disc's future comes from my fear we'll get hit by more pvp nerfs, or if we do fall behind we'll not get buffed because of pvp concerns.

    I don't think we've hit the ceiling yet, but I don't think the OP is crazy for worrying about it because there possibly is a ceiling there.

  4. #24

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    I think many Discipline Priests who aren't "feeling powerful" aren't using their tools to the best of their abilities.

    Discipline is amazing, ESPECIALLY for Hard Modes. Some of the fights are much harder without at least 1.

    I still hit #1 plenty of time when adding absorbs on some fights. That's not even the point though, so I hope you're not going off of Recount.

    Discipline is a great life buffer. We keep people from dying, heal insanely fast, are unmatched at healing burst/spike damage, and have other useful utility as well (PS, PI, Inspiration, Hasted PoH).

    Discipline does NOT hit it's true potential if all it does is heal the tank. We are roamers. We heal spike damage on the tank while throwing out shields and flashes on everyone else. We save lives, no matter who's life it is (Tank, DPS, other Healers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonberry
    But yeah, Pally healers are OP as hell. Stack them first. I can't see why they haven't gotten huge nerfs again. The mana nerf did nothing while the beacon buff made them the best healers by far.
    Best healers maybe, but when you add in all of my absorbs with my heals I can still give any good Holy Pally (similar gear) a run for his money on many fights. Of course there are some fights where they simply excell due to mechanics, but there's fights like that for Discipline as well (Twins -> Shield Spamming / Constant Hasted PoH / PoM)

    TLR
    With all arguing about who's better at what aside (we all have our strengths)...
    Bottom line = We're fine, we're fun, we're useful, we're unique, we supplement other healers perfectly.

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  5. #25

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedPower
    Sometimes you are really smart, other times you are just not. If you are assigned a role in raiding, you do that role, and there are rolls disc priest are not good at.

    But from your posts I can totaly see you doing w/e the hell you want.
    Sometimes you put your head out there and sound knowledgeable, and others seemingly not. The "role" that any Discipline Priest has, 90% of fights (in 25's, not 10's), is Support. You are a Support healer. You help the tank during spikes, you shield/penance the raid (and keep Mending bouncing at all times). You are not a full fledged raid healer, but you can do it in a pinch.

    You are not a full fledged Tank Healer, because between Shield/Penance cooldowns, Flash Heal isn't going to keep up. So of course, the Holy Paladin does it better and has their "rightful" (correction: self-righteous ass) self on the tank.

    You could say "omg if I'm not doing a real job and just support I'm replacable". But then you'd obviously be playing the numbers game, and only holding onto your job right now by the claim "ima gud disk preest watch me tnak heal." The amount of support is irrefutable. And tnot tank, or raid, but Support should be any Discipline Priest's role. Hands down.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  6. #26
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by G l o w y r m
    Discipline is amazing, ESPECIALLY for Hard Modes. Some of the fights are much harder without at least 1.
    ...
    Discipline does NOT hit it's true potential if all it does is heal the tank. We are roamers. We heal spike damage on the tank while throwing out shields and flashes on everyone else. We save lives, no matter who's life it is (Tank, DPS, other Healers).
    Exactly. Fucking exactly. Disc must be the first healer priest you add to the raid. It's THAT good.

    Retired raider coming back for WoD.
    WoD BETA CLUB

  7. #27

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Sometimes you put your head out there and sound knowledgeable, and others seemingly not. The "role" that any Discipline Priest has, 90% of fights (in 25's, not 10's), is Support. You are a Support healer. You help the tank during spikes, you shield/penance the raid (and keep Mending bouncing at all times). You are not a full fledged raid healer, but you can do it in a pinch.

    You are not a full fledged Tank Healer, because between Shield/Penance cooldowns, Flash Heal isn't going to keep up. So of course, the Holy Paladin does it better and has their "rightful" (correction: self-righteous ass) self on the tank.

    You could say "omg if I'm not doing a real job and just support I'm replacable". But then you'd obviously be playing the numbers game, and only holding onto your job right now by the claim "ima gud disk preest watch me tnak heal." The amount of support is irrefutable. And tnot tank, or raid, but Support should be any Discipline Priest's role. Hands down.
    A post so nice... I quoted it so it can be read twice! (That rhymed!) This is perfectly worded, Kelesti, and 100% correct. This explains the Discipline Priests role perfectly.

    I agree with you too, Zka, *high five!*

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  8. #28

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    If your Raid Leader is leaving you out to stack his raid with Holy Paladin's he needs a slap. Nay, a big fucking slap.

    As other's have mentioned, Disc should be the FIRST healer you get into your raid, followed by a Holy Pala.

    The 3% reduced damage and absorbs from shield spam should guarantee you a spot, combined with the spike healing from Penance/Flash Heal etc means that all Hardmodes (in fact all normal modes aswell) should contain at least 1 Disc Priest.

    Tell your Raid Leader to come read these forums and he'll see the light.

    I am Priest - Play Free Online Games

  9. #29

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedPower
    Sometimes you are really smart, other times you are just not. If you are assigned a role in raiding, you do that role, and there are rolls disc priest are not good at.
    Put a Holy Priest on tank heals. Put a Prot Pally on DPS. Put a Rogue on raid healing. It'll work! The only roles Disc does poorly are tanking and DPSing. If you're being assigned to either you need to get a new guild. It's pointless to say, 'Oh well if you're given a crappy role you'll do poorly.' It goes without saying. If you know what you're doing you can even raid heal on something like Twin Valks HM. Actually, it's a pretty good fight for a Disc raid healer as you can rotate PW:S/PoH and Penance on anyone getting particularly low while PoM bounces. Seriously unless you're given a downright stupid assignment like 'Only heal flames on JAraxxus!' or something, Disc can make it work if you know what you're doing.

  10. #30

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonberry
    For raid healing Tree > Disc > Pally > Holy > Shaman
    pallies > holy for raid healing? you must play with some awful holy priests in your guild.

  11. #31

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Sometimes you put your head out there and sound knowledgeable, and others seemingly not. The "role" that any Discipline Priest has, 90% of fights (in 25's, not 10's), is Support. You are a Support healer. You help the tank during spikes, you shield/penance the raid (and keep Mending bouncing at all times). You are not a full fledged raid healer, but you can do it in a pinch.

    You are not a full fledged Tank Healer, because between Shield/Penance cooldowns, Flash Heal isn't going to keep up. So of course, the Holy Paladin does it better and has their "rightful" (correction: self-righteous ass) self on the tank.

    You could say "omg if I'm not doing a real job and just support I'm replacable". But then you'd obviously be playing the numbers game, and only holding onto your job right now by the claim "ima gud disk preest watch me tnak heal." The amount of support is irrefutable. And tnot tank, or raid, but Support should be any Discipline Priest's role. Hands down.
    You are verry right.
    This I know, but some raid leaders do not. And I was just saying that if you are assigned to tank/raid heal for w/e reason you have to do it. If you are, then there are other healers that would do it better.

    I however am not going to tell my raid leader that a druid would do a better job at "X" and get replaced :-P. He is a verry moody chap and does not like "input". But then again I dont much care how effective I am as long as the boss gets down. It could have been easyer if I had been doing what I do best but, A kill is a kill even for hardmodes.
    Of course I try and maximize my effectiveness even when I'm on the tank but, only so much you can do yaknow.
    When people say "pls" just because its shorter then "please", I feel totally justified to say "No" just because its shorter then "Yes".

  12. #32

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?


    There's a Discipline Priest in each of the Rotface and Festergut videos on the front page of MMO-Champ. We are loved by the progression guilds. Believe it.

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  13. #33

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Disc priests are still godly in TOC hard modes, just as they were in Ulduar hard modes. Either your raid leader doesn't recognize this or--and I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just helpful--you need improvement.

    The "ceiling" you're talking about is unclear. If you're talking about throughput problems, you should keep in mind that there comes a point where you don't need to worry about regen, e.g. gemming for SP+int and wearing regen trinkets, and can simply go for straight spell power. This is especially true considering disc priests are the only healing spec in the entire game without a talent that converts a primary stat into spell power. It is very easy to reach a gear point where even in heroic TOC (10 or 25) you don't need to worry about mana at all. I don't know what your gear level is, but once you get to the point where you don't ever need to use your pet or a pot to regain mana, dump the SP+int gems and regen trinkets and go for throughput exclusively. By "throughput" in this case I mean spell power and haste (yes, haste, even if you've reached the so-called haste cap but only as long as your crit is high enough). For haste I would look more to gear rather than gems, but if you're not comfortable with your haste, gemming for it can be OK. Remember that healing as a (disc) priest is all about balance. Having 40% crit unbuffed is useless if you have zero haste.

    Additionally, you may want to look at your healing style. In my raids we have no tank healers per se. Sure, some people are assigned by our healing officer to focus on tanks, but everyone raid heals. If you're standing around waiting for someone to take damage, there is something wrong. You should ALWAYS be doing something as a healer. If you're not, you will be benched in any (good) raid.

  14. #34

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephistoe
    Disc priests are still godly in TOC hard modes, just as they were in Ulduar hard modes. Either your raid leader doesn't recognize this or--and I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just helpful--you need improvement.

    The "ceiling" you're talking about is unclear. If you're talking about throughput problems, you should keep in mind that there comes a point where you don't need to worry about regen, e.g. gemming for SP+int and wearing regen trinkets, and can simply go for straight spell power. This is especially true considering disc priests are the only healing spec in the entire game without a talent that converts a primary stat into spell power. It is very easy to reach a gear point where even in heroic TOC (10 or 25) you don't need to worry about mana at all. I don't know what your gear level is, but once you get to the point where you don't ever need to use your pet or a pot to regain mana, dump the SP+int gems and regen trinkets and go for throughput exclusively. By "throughput" in this case I mean spell power and haste (yes, haste, even if you've reached the so-called haste cap but only as long as your crit is high enough). For haste I would look more to gear rather than gems, but if you're not comfortable with your haste, gemming for it can be OK. Remember that healing as a (disc) priest is all about balance. Having 40% crit unbuffed is useless if you have zero haste.

    Additionally, you may want to look at your healing style. In my raids we have no tank healers per se. Sure, some people are assigned by our healing officer to focus on tanks, but everyone raid heals. If you're standing around waiting for someone to take damage, there is something wrong. You should ALWAYS be doing something as a healer. If you're not, you will be benched in any (good) raid.
    Yes, throughput is what i'm worried about. Most of my my gems are for 23 sp, only some for 12sp+5mp5 or 12sp+10int, both trinkets for SP (dragon soul and eye of a broodmother). So with all raid buffs and trinkets stacked i should have about 3200 spellpower. And i AM casting something every gcd, - shields, PoM, penance on anyone low (unless i'm on tank, then i save penance for tank and shield raid inbetween), even Prayer of Healing once in a while By the end of the fight i'm even usually dry on mana, so i have to be smart on my mana cooldowns. On "easy" fights (like ToC normal) i'm totally on par with our other healers, but when we have to push it, I start to feel weak. First example is Gormok-hard, when we were still learning him, we wouldn't even go there without 2 holy pallies on tanks, if one of our pallies wasnt online i couldnt sub him in this role, bcz pally is twice as good on tanks as anyone else. When it comes to AoE, well, i guess those numbers our druids, pallies and shammies got on Val'kyrs-hard just made me feel envious :P

  15. #35

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    The one complaint I have about healing as Disc over Holy (and no doubt, I find Disc more fun) is coordination with other Disc priests. Disc runs into interference with itself (i.e. someone else of the same spec) more than any other class/spec combination. I've hit 25's with 3 disc groups and it's just HELL. The benefits of absorb mechanics reaches diminished returns fairly quickly. 1 disc is going to have to work to keep shield throughput/heals well balanced. 2 disc and both are going to be shifting attention to more direct healing (and are going to have to be a bit careful about shield targets). At 3, one of them better have a Holy dualspec.

    It may just be an anomaly on my primary server, but it seems that a disproportionate number of the raid pug healers (and the usual suspects clear up to and including hard mode toc10 and usually at least see Anub on hard 25) are priests, and most of those are disc. I wouldn't sweat it if I wasn't so attached to my Shadow spec (and thus generally pick one or the other of the healing specs).
    Wow Forum accomplishment: autobanned for using the following phrase:
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  16. #36

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xombo
    ??? ???
    I C WUT U DID THAR!

  17. #37

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    I'm doing 14k+ absorb/healing (10-11k absorb/3-4k healing) on twins hardmode. Even Druids can't do much more here.
    Don't see any poorscaling or something.

  18. #38

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalash
    I'm doing 14k+ absorb/healing (10-11k absorb/3-4k healing) on twins hardmode. Even Druids can't do much more here.
    Don't see any poorscaling or something.
    As i told already, those numbers arent true, the absorb from orbs of the same colour are added, because recount cant figure out which absorb is from shield, and which from orb. If you shield-spam 100% of time, your absorbs are capped at about 7,5k (assuming 7,5k shields with 1 sec gcd with borrowed time) In real life absorbs are lower, because you use other spells too; Of course, on some fights where you can pre-shield to be more effective, but on valkyrs there is no big difference between shields and direct heals

  19. #39

    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    I'd say it is true that Disc does not scale as well from stats as other healers do (since we usually are forced to get a lot of spirit we hardly use and we have a pretty low soft cap on haste). In theory we would be outscaled at some point. In practice we are uber enough not to face that issue.

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire
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    Re: disc hitting the ceiling?

    I have a disc priest which isn't too good geared, and on twins normal I'm on around 11-12k EH/s, just keep PoM on CD and spam PW: S on whole raid.

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