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  1. #21

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Wasn't Hammer of the Righteous given in TBC, and then given lower lvl spell ranks, similar to Water Shield/Aspect of the Viper?

  2. #22

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasti

    -Retri can offtank better for leveling purposes (levling in isntances)
    Ret can already Tank while leveling in instances (Granted not Wrath quality ones, and barely BC ones, but before that They are able to quite well).

    And yes, I've seen it done many of times while leveling alts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  3. #23

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou
    Wasn't Hammer of the Righteous given in TBC, and then given lower lvl spell ranks, similar to Water Shield/Aspect of the Viper?
    I coulda sworn it was the 51 point talent, but that may just be me...

  4. #24
    Bloodsail Admiral Annarion's Avatar
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    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasti
    I hope some offensive ability, preferably a short cd mediocre damage tool with a nice utility tied into it

    They shud rename Avenging Wrath to Avatar (so ppl wont ever ask for that ability ever again!)

    And maybe a "fun" ability, such as invisibility/mirror immage/blink/shadowstep/deathgrip/heroic leap/levitate/mind control etc etc etc

    Something that isnt:
    "stand in melee range, click ability, watch the enemys hp go down and/or get a debuff and/or watch the paladin get a buff".

    We need something that actually is unique to watch for a paladin.
    http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=642

  5. #25

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by annarion
    Honestly i wish they would just remove that spell and gave us either better way to defend or a way to actually make a healer not just /dance with you.
    Because some players aren't looking for anything logical, like loot. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some players just want to watch the group fail.

  6. #26
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    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by RGeneral24
    as other ppl are saying we getting again 3 according 2 blizz so what would u want new 4 us?
    AFAIK...there's been no word on new abiliites. Further, I'd expect to see our old abilities swapped around so the old Xpax aren't necessarily relevant.

    As for what we need...

    1: Ret and Prot need a new resource system, to separate melee from mana.
    2: Ret and Prot could do with a gap closer
    3: All three specs could do with a an anti-caster ability.
    4: Holy could use a bit of variation in its spell list...something dedicated to group healing perhaps, even if that isn't a focus. A PW:Barrier would be a good type of spell here.
    5: Interaction - spammable abilities, and links between abilities. Reactive abilities.

    It would be nice to have shields more useful to holy and prot.
    It would also be nice to have a bit more hybridism...with the talent trees being pruned, it would be nice to see some of that space used to help wrth the other two roles...ex. Ret gets an ability to wear a shield with a 2H at the cost of damage (for tanking) and say, Healing vortex...Cone of Cold which heals. Prot could get Healing Ground (Cons Heals) and a straightforward attack.



    EJL

  7. #27
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    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nienniora
    a dps who dont use DP end up doing thread like : ret paladin with mana issues, wait that remind me of something..
    Holy paladin without DP would screwed lol
    Sacred shield is used by all

    SoRight only used by holy in pvp, and prot everywhere
    Erm, prot doesn't use SoR... at all. It's supposed to be a tanking seal according to Blizzard, but it just brings nothing to the table that the other's don't already. I'd much rather use SoV on progress and tougher bosses, and SoCommand on trash due to the chaining ability being excellent for AoE TPS.

    SoR is to SoCommand as SoJustice is to Divine Intervention... actually, i use SoJustice more these days, even if only for Faction Champions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen
    AFAIK...there's been no word on new abiliites. Further, I'd expect to see our old abilities swapped around so the old Xpax aren't necessarily relevant.

    As for what we need...

    1: Ret and Prot need a new resource system, to separate melee from mana.
    2: Ret and Prot could do with a gap closer
    3: All three specs could do with a an anti-caster ability.
    4: Holy could use a bit of variation in its spell list...something dedicated to group healing perhaps, even if that isn't a focus. A PW:Barrier would be a good type of spell here.
    5: Interaction - spammable abilities, and links between abilities. Reactive abilities.

    It would be nice to have shields more useful to holy and prot.
    It would also be nice to have a bit more hybridism...with the talent trees being pruned, it would be nice to see some of that space used to help wrth the other two roles...ex. Ret gets an ability to wear a shield with a 2H at the cost of damage (for tanking) and say, Healing vortex...Cone of Cold which heals. Prot could get Healing Ground (Cons Heals) and a straightforward attack.
    I agree with the need to change from a mana system for prot and ret. I think there's technical limitations to this though.
    Prot kinda has a gap closer already, but it's mainly used during a nuke or to silence someone.
    Prot is pretty anti-caster these days, and while it still lacks something, i'm happy that i knew what it was like in TBC (where casters were king against us, and melee just sucked it up).

    Also, why would PROT want CONSECRATION to HEAL? They've just tried to tone down Protection healing a load, and the last thing we need is something that Holy can spam something that was an AoE Threat/DPS ability because they have the mana, but protection can't spam the same ability because their mana pool and regen doesn't support it.

    That right there is a major change to Paladin AoE Threat gen. Our AoE threat gen really isn't king these days either, and i find it easier to AoE tank on my REALLY undergeared druid in bear form (who's kitty dps spec at that) than i do on my REALLY well-geared Paladin (due to swipe being able to crit, and crit for more than consecration ticks will ever go for, and let's not mention that there's no rage issues so i can keep spamming it).

    What i could see them doing with Consecration is something that increases damage of all allies stood in it by a small amount. That doesn't necessarily mean from Prot, but it could be from Ret as well. Protection would probably have their consecration be able to reduce damage to all allies stood in it by a small amount, whereas Holy might have the ability for it to AoE heal, like an AoE HoT that's placed around the Paladin.

    As for new baseline abilities... hmmm. I'm not really sure. All the previous baselines have been unique in what they do. One was a new CD for damage and healing, one was a much needed mana regen tool that was able to be talented and glyphed for the spec that needs it the most, and the other was a spammable ability that was useable by all but one that benefitted 2 specs in different ways.

    Consider this; Avenging Wrath is in the Ret tab of the spellbook. Sacred Shield and Divine Plea are in the Holy tab of the spellbook. I could see something in the Prot tab next, something that all can use (i.e. they can't all use ShoR), but that Prot will use more than the others. Not damage reduction, but perhaps something like a targetless charge (i.e. Heroic Leap; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-xecrUy5Ic) that reduces damage of next attack by a certain amount.
    [...]

  8. #28

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    The only way this post could be more awesome is to say Ret has really low DPS.
    "Every time"i look @the mmo-champions forums, i see you trolling somewhere.
    Troll.

  9. #29

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Erm, prot doesnt use SoR... at all. Its supposed to be a tanking seal according to Blizzard, but it just brings nothing to the table that the others dont already. Id much rather use SoV on progress and tougher bosses, and SoCommand on trash due to the chaining ability being excellent for AoE TPS.
    He is talking about the shield slam, not the seal.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kishin
    Every timei look @the mmo-champions forums, i see you trolling somewhere.
    Troll.
    If by Troll you mean guy who does not like reading the same topics over and over about how we should be remade or what the Hit cap is; then yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  10. #30

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    We do need a close ability pretty bad, it's annoying sometimes. But tbh, with the way current mana return is as holy using SoW, DP is really just for use in between pulls or phases, you can't use it in combat so much in ToGC25 like you could in Uld or Naxx. I would like to see maybe a new resistance seal, maybe arcane, or some type of hybrid. And I really want them to give us the ability to cast a blessing raid wide if we choose. Now while in alot of situations you cannot as you have to might on this, kings on that, etc etc. In our raids we run 4 pallies so it would be great, and for Ret and Prot having such a limited mana pool it would be really nice as they are basicly OOM after casting the blessings. And is it just me or could Devo use a little more too? with the amount of armor on things now the amount from even imp Devo seems maybe a little small.

    Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Deathwarrant

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Nienniora's Avatar
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    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    He is talking about the shield slam, not the seal.
    yep exactly, whats the abbreviations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    If by Troll you mean guy who does not like reading the same topics over and over about how we should be remade or what the Hit cap is; then yeah.
    you forgot about t10 thread


    BTW thanks Chron for the new rules and thread

  12. #32

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by ewhenn
    LOL what?

    Yes, Sacred shield which scales with spell power is a "tank" ability. So is divine plea too right? I mean regaining 25% of your mana, what healer would want that?!

    /facepalm
    Okay under-hit-cap-belf-pally, have you LOOKED at the prot tree before?
    Thunderstorm, the spell that brings families together and breaks LM apart.

  13. #33

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasti
    I'll say it once and I'll say it again

    baseline ability:

    Bolvar's zeal:
    Allows the paladin to equip a 2h+shield
    I just read that and thought what a cool prot ability to be able to equip the shield in both hands, thus being the purest tank, and thought you would go on to write about doubling the damage done with the shield etc.
    Then it stopped making a lot of sense and I read it a little better and saw you wrote 2h + shield not 2h shield :P
    Anyway, i'd like an ability to equip the shield in both hands, more damage mitigation and all damage done with shield, which is most of our (prot) damage now anyways.

  14. #34

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenderhoof
    I just read that and thought what a cool prot ability to be able to equip the shield in both hands, thus being the purest tank, and thought you would go on to write about doubling the damage done with the shield etc.
    Then it stopped making a lot of sense and I read it a little better and saw you wrote 2h + shield not 2h shield :P
    Anyway, i\'d like an ability to equip the shield in both hands, more damage mitigation and all damage done with shield, which is most of our (prot) damage now anyways.
    Yah, Fuck our high threat Hammer attack, and who needs seal damage or auto attacks. Why would we want a boost from a Weapon enchant either?
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  15. #35

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasti
    I'll say it once and I'll say it again

    baseline ability:

    Bolvar's zeal:
    Allows the paladin to equip a 2h+shield
    There are many problems with this. For starters it would be pretty insane for holy pallies - staff and shield? don't mind if I do! Then they'd need to add melee dps shields just for rets, and you know how much they love adding a new type of gear just for one spec right? Prot couldn't use the same 2Hs for tanking as DKs because DKs get their mitigation stats on weapons from the runeforging, so they'd have to either change that or make special tank 2Hs for prot.

    Forget it, not gonna happen and frankly shouldn't.

    ( The double shield thing got suggested a while back and most people thought that it would be either dumb looking, overpowered or both )

    As for the business about wotlk bringing mostly prot abilities, there's some truth in it. Sure holy can and does use DP, but holy had a fine mana system in TBC that got nerfed down to accomodate DP - it was quite clear that DP was added to provide a way to get mana into tanks.

    Honestly though I don't think blizz will give out abilties based on who's 'turn' it is. They'll give them out based on which spec seems to have the biggest needs - but it's hard to say what that will be. I suspect it may be holy, because even though holy is in a fantastic spot right now, they'll need to make huge changes to it for Cata. With Int becoming the new caster stat, Holydins can't keep getting +20% extra, and extra throughput from it. With spirit as a universal mana tool we may see yet more nerfs to illumination.

    Given all the complaints about homogenization in wrath I think they'll be nervous about giving out spectacular new stuff like an AoE heal to holy or a silence to ret - we probably have to set the sights somewhat lower than that.

    Honestly with this new mastery stuff going on, there might not be any new abilities at all.

  16. #36
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    There are many problems with this. For starters it would be pretty insane for holy pallies - staff and shield? don't mind if I do! Then they'd need to add melee dps shields just for rets, and you know how much they love adding a new type of gear just for one spec right? Prot couldn't use the same 2Hs for tanking as DKs because DKs get their mitigation stats on weapons from the runeforging, so they'd have to either change that or make special tank 2Hs for prot.

    Forget it, not gonna happen and frankly shouldn't.
    Paladins can't use Staffs.

    Good try though


    As for Ret using a shield, they would have to go with either a Caster shield (for Int/SP/Crit/Haste) or a Tank shield (for STR and maybe Expertise). Come Cata, there will be NO defense rating, so Prot would be "okay" using a DPS weapon.

  17. #37

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nienniora
    yep exactly, whats the abbreviations?
    abbreviation for Shield of Righteousness is ShoR.

  18. #38

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    I agree that prot pallies should get an ability to close distance, or stop a run away mob. The other issue that comes to mind is holy pally AoE heals.

    My idea is a desecration aura for protection that increases movement speed by the paladin by 10% and applies a debuff that reduces movement speed of all enemies within 20 yards by 10% for 4 seconds every 5 seconds. Because it applies a debuff and isn't an aura, it would could be subject to diminishing returns in PvP, and also you could time it so that it could still be applied when you out range a group of mobs. The party would not be affected by the movement speed increase so that other auras are still viable for certain encounters. This would make a difference in position for consecration, as well as increasing the possibilities for tricky pulls since the enemies would stay in the consecration for longer while you move up to pull more/get in position. It would not affect bosses.

    My idea for Holy paladins is giving a new talent in Holy called Hallow Ground that decreases the damage of consecration by 50%, mana cost by 50%, the duration by 5 seconds and give it a buff to anyone who stands in it that makes them benefit from 15% of any heals given to a beacon'd target. So basically it gives everyone inside the consecration a percent of the beacon heals.
    Example:
    There's a 10 man raid, you beacon the main tank and consecrate in the middle of the room. Everyone stacks up on the consecration. You throw a heal on member 1 and because he and everyone else is affected by the tanks beacon, everyone in the raid receives 15% of the heal.

    Anyways, that's what I'd like to see.

  19. #39

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nammi
    I agree that prot pallies should get an ability to close distance, or stop a run away mob. The other issue that comes to mind is holy pally AoE heals.
    Judge of justice stops mobs from running and stops them from moving faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  20. #40

    Re: Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

    we don't need a speed increase and speed decrease. we already have that with PoJ and JoJ. but it's NOT enough.

    if we get CC'd into place and the mob goes to another person instead of you the ONLY thing you can do is taunt and try to catch up to it while it comes back. ANY other tank charge to it or Death Grip it back INSTANTLY closing the gap between them. we have to run up to it or wait till it gets to us, which in some cases doesnt work cus people pull aggro while it's on it's way to you.

    WTB a REAL instant distance closer. don't care if it has a 1min cooldown. Hell, I say remove JoJ slowing effect and let us have it with 30sec CD. JoJ is only really good against druids in pvp anyways.

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