[Enha] Can someone explain that to me? Gemming and Rawr

[Malutek]

Hello.

I can`t unedrstand one thing about Rawr. It says to me to gem my gear with (almost) +20 haste gems. I tried that strategy but it doesn`t seem to upgrade my dps, I`m still 7-10th in 25 man`s. I`m geared mostly with 226/232/245 items, raiding everything till 25 heroics (toc10 hard done). My current stats are 4100 AP, 531 HR, 31.38% Crit Chance, 36 Expertise (have to lower it, just got Victor`s Call) and 421 Haste Rating. While normally I woudnt be bothering to post and take your time with my prob there`s one thing that keeps me fuzzy; why pro shamans (like Zarios, Hooftrellen, Embermoon, took few 1st from mmo sigs) are gemming with AP gems only? Our stats are similiar, bah, they r haste is much lower. Than what I`m supposed to do? I have about 3 new items I have to gem soon, and I dont want to regem it each day. It costs :P

And btw, any advices (I know, calculate from Rawr n stuff) what weps should I use right now cos have 4 and dunno which one to choose (was lucky last raids with loot..): Vulmir, The Masticator, The Grinder (ilvl 232), The Lion`s Maw (ilvl 245).

And last question, why Victor`s Call is being ranked so low in Rawr? I know that in tooltip it`s written that effect is stackable, but when I pop it, I`ve got instant +1k AP buff. My dps went up significantly (I was capped with expertise before).

Thanks in advance for any replies and sorry for my average english.

[oxo]

Victor`s Call is being ranked low because u have capped exp ?

[Malutek]

First of all that would be silly way of thinking cos I can change 3 +20 exp gems I`m using right now for sth diffrent (like AP or haste) and then that item is usefull for me. And 2nd, I`ve seen comments about that trinket that it`s shit for shamans (stacking takes time and it`s 'Use' item).

[Bazgab]

Your hit is way too high, yes hit is still useful after the cap but considering your lvl of gear your AP should be a decent amount higher. From what I have seen on forums and such, even though haste generally sims to be the highest stat (I know it was by far the highest ranked stat when I used Enhsim last) it acts oddly at certain amounts. As such, just stacking straight haste might not be the best though I think at your haste level (421 Haste) you are still fine. I would probably suggest gemming for straight AP at this point as you should probably have several hundred more AP than you currently do.

Yeah Victor's Call isn't really that great of a trinket though I am like you and using it as I have nothing better atm. It would probably be easier for people to give you more tips if you posted your armory.

[Jadoro]

Victor's Call is ranked low because you are Exp capped without it. Any increase of 26 expertise does absolutely nothing to increase your dps. Rawr doesn't rate gear on what you could change, it rates gear on what you have at the moment. If you were to remove your Expertise gear in Rawr so that you were well below the 26 mark, Victor's Call will then rank pretty high. I typically don't like "on use" trinkets, but you take what you can get. If someone says it takes too long to stack they don't know what they're talking about cause it's at full stacks after 5 hits which takes 2 seconds, maybe 3?

For your weapons, I would go Lion's Maw main-hand, The Grinder off-hand (did a quick sim with EnhSim of the choices, this simmed best)

As for the gems, you really need to use EnhSim on a gem by gem basis. There is no overall correct answer, it all depends on the rest of your gear at that moment. Generally I put 40AP in red and blue slots (except to fulfill meta requirements) and either AP/Haste or AP/Crit in yellow slots. Again this is *My* general rule and I still always use EnhSim first unless I don't have time.

One reason that's been brought up in other threads about haste being really good in Simulators is that it's a program that is to the milisecond accurate. It uses the priority system flawlessly. So you can reach haste "sweet spots" in a sim that don't really exist in reality.

Hit way too high? If he's gemming for it, yes. Shaman gear this tier has a lot of hit. I'll be at 100% white hit as soon as I turn in the trophy that's in my bag. I'm not gemming for hit at all and I'm not going out of my way to get hit either. I do have 2 hit trinkets, but that's only because they are the best I've been able to get my hands on at this point.

[Malutek]

Yeah, you might be right why does the Rawr rank Victor`s Call so low. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...e&n=Shockmoose Here`s armory link. For some reasons it didn`t update some of changes (like belt or bracers). So far I was gemming with Rawr`s suggestions. I`m not gemming for hit rating, high hit is.. cause it is :P As you can see I have a lot of expertise gems that I can get rid of em now. Will try straight AP gemming, hope it`ll bring change One more quick question, which piece of T9 would u pick on my place?

[Fornaw]

Part of the reason I stay with mostly AP gems is because AP is a more versatile stat. Imagine a situation where I can prove on a test dummy (full raid buffed somehow) that a 20 haste gem is exactly the same dps as a 40 AP gem. Now I go into a raid, ZOMG adds, drop magma, but only AP increases damage done by magma. Same is true for wolves (do not scale with haste yet), and on non-boss level mobs less of your spell damage is resisted which gives AP somewhat more of an edge.

There's also an issue of simulators being a bit too perfect in their timing, if you can get an extra attack in with a 20 haste gem the computer always will, even though the time window will most likely be much smaller than human reaction time.

So haste has a place as a good stat, but don't go crazy with gemming it until you know how it works.

[serif]

that much hit is crazy.

"My current stats are 4100 AP, 531 HR, 31.38% Crit Chance, 36 Expertise (have to lower it, just got Victor`s Call) and 421 Haste Rating."

if i recall, un-buffed im at like 4650ap, 419hit, 36.9%crit, 330 haste, and 25 expertise and im usually #2 or #3 dps in 25man raids behind our OP hunters.

so lose some hit and expertise for some AP and crit.

I too was confused why people think victor's call is a shitty trinket. yes its on-use, yes it has a ramp-up time... but hell its freaking 83 static expertise, that frees up 3-4 gem slots that i can use for AP. and when its popped it hits the full stack count in like 3 seconds because of dual-wield... people need to give victor's call some more love. Yeah i know its definitely not the best one out there, and there are plenty of other solid options but i don't think it should be overlooked completely.


the one thing that annoys me about Rawr, is when i optimize it tells me to re-gem all my dragon eye's into the equivalent epic gem.... um... no, i will not change my +68ap dragon's eye into a +40ap cardinal ruby.

The whole gemming bit of rawr seems finicky anyway... like sometimes it will tell me to re-gem and move my nightmare tear from the blue slot in my gloves to the blue slot in my chest... why? who cares which piece its in im not going to buy another one just to move it. I know this really doesn't affect the usefulness of rawr, its just a minor inconvenience that I wish would get fixed (maybe it has and im just not up to date - or maybe i just don't know how to properly use rawr... i know there is a place where you can set up rules but i never touch it... maybe thats my problem).

[Barawr]

If Rawr is telling you to replace all your Dragon's Eye gems with the epic versions then you simply have not selected Jeweler in the gemming templates.

[serif]

If Rawr is telling you to replace all your Dragon's Eye gems with the epic versions then you simply have not selected Jeweler in the gemming templates.

ah, see... just as i suspected, user error. haha ty

[Embermoon]

Malutek, I appreciate very much being thought of as a "pro" player. If I'm a good shaman player, it's because I've learned a few key things:

1. Use both Rawr and Enhsim, but only as one of several factors in your gearing decisions. And, even of those two, Rawr alone doesn't cut it. Use Enhsim more, as it is a far better modeler of dps than Rawr, but just keep in mind that both are imperfect, for the reasons already mentioned. Factors such as latency/lag, human reaction time, and varying raid conditions, all differ from the assumptions that each makes. Use rawr to configure a gear/gem/enchant set, then export that data to Enhsim, and run the dps simulator for your results.

2. Be conscious of the differences between the general FAQ guidelines, the sim's assumptions, and the environment you're raiding in. This is where it becomes more and more crucial to understand all the subtle nuances of the class, and the enhance spec, in particular. For example, the FAQ says to hit 368 hit rating, if you're horde, and then gem/gear for AP and crit. Many enhance players will tell other enhance players that they have "too much hit" if they get more hit. That may or may not be true. Unless and until you sim your different gearing options, you won't know. Personally, I like to stay above 446 (17%) hit rating, for a couple of reasons. One, it makes me spell hit capped, without the need for a spriest or boomkin. Two, adds and trash never get misery or IFF, so me being 17% capped helps my dps. Even if someone argues that trash doesn't matter, they can't argue that boss' adds don't matter. And, if the boomkin and spriest are dead, then I don't suffer from not being capped. When you add a fight into the equation that requires interrupts or purges, then mine will never miss. What makes for a better enhance shaman; one who topped the dps meters before the raid wiped, or the one who made certain that he was able to effectively use his abilities, when the raid needed them? As mentioned, more hit rating = more white swings. Whether or not you should lower it for more AP and crit should be determined by the sim.

3. Understanding the "sweet-spot" ratio of AP:Crit:Hit:Haste - I tend to go with more AP, where a couple of my guildies go for haste. On boss fights, I'm always on top. On trash, they're on top. Which matters more? Bosses or trash? Movement is another factor. The more you have to move in a fight, the fewer times you're hitting the boss. In that situation, you want the hits that you're making to count for more. Even if haste sims higher on dps, the individual fight mechanics may not allow for it. The more haste you stack, it's always at the expense of more AP, and vice-versa.

4. Try to keep an understanding of what Blizz' intentions for the spec are. Over the time I've played, I've seen some gimpy crap come up. At the beginning of this expansion, people were finding fast/fast weapons, imbued with double FT, combined with elemental shaman gear to be advantageous. And so, they ran out and collected all the gear they could towards that end. For anyone who took even a moment to think about Blizzard's intention for the spec, they'd have to realize that Blizzard wants us dual-wielding, using slow weapons (even though slow/fast WF/FT used to be better), using windfury, and gearing in "enhance" gear - i.e. physical dps mail. So, when the nerfhammer came down, those shaman players immediately became much less viable to their raid groups, unless they had enhance gear that they could immediately switch back to. My personal belief is that the only stat that blizz intends for us to stack is AP. Hit, expertise, crit, and haste all have practical caps, after which their value lessens, in relation to stacking more AP. The other four are support stats, that all serve to allow you to do more with the AP that you have.

[evan_s]

Two, adds and trash never get misery or IFF, so me being 17% capped helps my dps. Even if someone argues that trash doesn't matter, they can't argue that boss' adds don't matter. And, if the boomkin and spriest are dead, then I don't suffer from not being capped.

Unless the trash/adds are also skull con then you are already capped for spells with the recommend 14% to hit. Base resist for mob that is the same level as you are is much lower than the 17% and only get to 175 skull con mobs 3+ levels above you.

[Embermoon]

Unless the trash/adds are also skull con then you are already capped for spells with the recommend 14% to hit. Base resist for mob that is the same level as you are is much lower than the 17% and only get to 175 skull con mobs 3+ levels above you.

Good point. I'll stick with the "spriest and boomkin are dead" angle then.

[Deleted]

As the Rawr.Enhance developer I can perhaps shed some light on the issues raised.

First when you say it ranks Victor's call low, this will be because you are looking at the graphs. The graphs give the dps for an empty slot vs the item in the graph. If you are over Expertise cap without Victor's call then the expertise on it is worthless and the dps value will only be the proc.

To find out what's best. What you need to do is use the Rawr Optimiser. First in each graph click the little green diamonds to mark what you have available. Do this for every slot, it's done automatically for slots you loaded from armoury or from a character profiler import. Remember to mark any enchants too if you have options. ie: make sure at least one enchant per slot is marked.

Once you have marked everything you have equipped or in your bags/bank with a green diamond, goto the Tools menu and select Optimise. Now you can click on the optimise button on the form and it will go off trying LOTS and LOTS of different combinations of the gear you marked as available, gradually homing in on the best combo. Part of this process will try swapping around gems to get the highest dps it can. eg: picking up a set bonus if its better that way.

For your situation this will work out which combo of weapons is best. It will find out that by dropping expertise gems it can make good use of Victor's call. Thus allowing it to re-gem for something else. It really is quite remarkable.

Note that it does this by trying to home in on the best result. It might not always find the best result if several combinations give similar results. To help it you can change the thoroughness of its testing (how deep it searches) by moving the thoroughness slider to the right. This will usually give a better result but will take significantly longer.

Its common for users to never have used the optimiser as they didn't watch the video to see how to use it. Once you use it once you will wonder how on earth you managed doing things manually.

[Malutek]

Thanks for all replies.
Of course I know how to use Optimizer , using it each time with full thoroughness (max on right). Yet, I don`t really trust it anymore, cause as I stated before, it sggests me to gem with almost all gems +haste which was not satysfying. I chose that way and dps was.. average. That`s also why I asked here about weapon choice; Rawr is a really good program, but it can misslead me now, as I`m not going to stack haste. Now I changed my gemming style and went for straight AP gems, and I have to admit that my dps has increased significantly. I have to say that I changed my weapons from Masticator/Vulmir to the Lions Maw/Grinder, but I`m pretty sure that it didn`t affected my incresed dmg as much as AP gems.

Rawr is really a good program, was helping me hundreds of times (I`m still using it for resto spec but this haste.. In my opinion there`s something odd with it. I was thinking is there any way to exclude XXX gem from Optimizer? So he won`t go for haste stack? Don`t think that deleting +20 haste gem from database will simply prevent it (maybe he will start going for gems like +10 xxx AND + haste). A rule such a 'don`t stack haste' would be quite nice :P but think that`d be hard to implement as a whole. Or add a rule (maybe it exists, not sure) to limit haste?

[Deleted]

I do the same and typically go for AP over haste. To get the optimizer to do this simply select tools gemming templates and untick the haste gems. I'm on iPhone and not PC but I think that's all that is required. Alternatively select the gem drop downs and remove the green diamonds from the haste gems. The optimizer then won't use them.

The new graphing feature in v2.2.24 makes it a lot easier to understand haste.