I hope ICC is pugable

[Deleted]

i hope to hell your a troll, otherwise your just incredibly fucking stupid

LEARN2READ.

Jesus what it is with these saddos and there shitty fly past comments>?

[Palladdin]

Hey! I think that the bosses leading up to arthas should be puggable, but arthas should be as difficult as he is important to lore. If casuals want to see content, they can see him. Killing him is another story alltogether. I personally think wow has gone down a bad street. All these different kinds of difficulties. Went from 1 to 2 to 4. The only people that know Arthas's real importance is those to have read the lore. casuals just know him showing up time to time talking while they were leveling. In that regards, The lore junkies, hardcore raiders, whatever you call them, should see the content as it should be. A awesome raid, where lore is very intertwined with the raid and where it takes multiple days/weeks of attempts to down arthas. From what i saw on the PTR, after 1 week (once the strats move out from the harder guilds) there will be pugs (carrying their T8.5 and T9 stuff from emblem heroics, which i thought was bad too ;D) will be able to go in there and kill arthas. That just seems wrong to a long time wower like me. I think if you want to see him, go for it, go see him (cant kill him) or go watch a youtube video on the battle :P

[Dubroya]

I LIKE GNOMES!

[jealouspirate]

Yes, normal mode ICC should be puggable, including Arthas. This is not just my philosophy, it's Blizzard's too.

But of course this depends on your pug. There's no reason why a pug with skilled players using vent should do worse than a guild run. No reason at all.

What hurts pugs is sometimes people getting in them who haven't researched fights, aren't properly geared, etc.


Anyway, I voted #5. Go Gnomes!

[Deleted]

I hope not, the casual had all in these exp, then they'll have more gear with new emblem and the t8 items with the old farmable via 5man, then ICC is the last raid in this pack, I hope pugs wipe on the first pull.

[sicness]

ICC is going to be a good indicator of how bad Cataclysm will be... The likeliest scenario is that Blizz will make it stupidly easy to "let people see content" which is a serious fail mentality. They have to realize you CAN'T cater to EVERYONE, and trying to do it this expansion was a mistake.

The culminating raids in both classic and BC were not anywhere near puggable... Why should ICC be? I'm not saying "blah blah blah casuals suck dick" or anything like that, I just think ICC should actually be DIFFICULT, unlike (most) of the shit we have now. I mean... that makes sense doesn't it?

Why shouldn't they cater to their most popular audience (casuals)? It's sound business tactics. Hard core guilds still get their hard modes and world firsts while experiencing raids and obtaining gear that casuals won't normally get, and now casual players also get the chance to actually raid and experience end game content instead of just running around doing dailies. How's that such a bad thing?

[Velzira]

I still love this casual vs hardcore argument. Like if you spend more time hanging out in an excel spreadsheet crunching numbers...you are hardcore. But if you only raid 4 nights a week for 3 hours a night...you are casual and don't deserve anything? Honestly what has being hardcore over casual ever gotten anyone? Some titles? Hey brah, guess what? That 200+g you spent learning how to do Sarth 3d for that title/mount? Yeah I spent maybe 1/10th of that in a zerg group that killed him. I like my pretty title and mount.

Being hardcore doesn't equal special, it just means you dedicate yourself for more hours into a raid then you should for some false sense of success. ICC will be casual friendly, maybe not at first, but it eventually will be. Blizzard has learned from its mistakes, its better to have content that everyone has a chance to see instead of those who worked out "mathmatically impossible" raid boss kills.

And really, if it is puggable...how will that effect you? If someone from a casual guild gets a piece of loot of the same ilevel as someone in a hardcore guild...does that lower your dps? If I raid 3 nights a week in 3.3 for 2-3 hours a night...and I pick up an awesome drop...will that make it harder for your healers to heal? No, its just a butthurt issue where the FEW hardcore raiders still are locked into the mentality that 2% of the WoW community should be the only ones experiencing content. I guess they miss that feeling of standing around in Ironforge and having people gawk at their gear.

Oh and btw, when I refer to "casual players", I mean players that while casual still have an idea of what to do. You'd be surprised at how many good casual players there are out there. Of course for every good one, there are 5 bad ones. So warriors who gem with spirit or hunters who gem for spellpower/mp5 should succeed in ICC, BUT those who at least took the time to study their class/priority rotation should be able to handle it no problem.

[Aswed]

why so little people like pie ?

And why even little-er(?) people like gnomes?

[Vakir]

ICC is going to be a good indicator of how bad Cataclysm will be... The likeliest scenario is that Blizz will make it stupidly easy to "let people see content" which is a serious fail mentality. They have to realize you CAN'T cater to EVERYONE, and trying to do it this expansion was a mistake.

The culminating raids in both classic and BC were not anywhere near puggable... Why should ICC be? I'm not saying "blah blah blah casuals suck dick" or anything like that, I just think ICC should actually be DIFFICULT, unlike (most) of the shit we have now. I mean... that makes sense doesn't it?

The hard modes will be extremely challenging, so you have nothing to worry about. =)

[Lokigar]

I hope it sure as hell isn't puggable, by any means. I'm SO sick and tired of seeing every single raid instance get nerfed to oblivion just so scrubs can clear them. If you want similiar gear, learn to play your fucking class.

[mahren]

i like this.

[sicness]

I hope it sure as hell isn't puggable, by any means. I'm SO sick and tired of seeing every single raid instance get nerfed to oblivion just so scrubs can clear them. If you want similiar gear, learn to play your fucking class.

I still don't understand this argument. Why does it bother you? It doesn't effect you in any way so why do you let it bother you?

[iLive]

Why do you think there's hard mode and normal mode? If normal mode is too hard, then go heroic dungeons :]

[The Madgod]

theres a bloody difference between "mind-numbingly easy" and "PUGable" and even "able to be done by a large spread of players" y'know..

mind-numbingly easy is bad; there isnt a challenge, and it isnt fun. It means that you can do it with a slapped-together group, no matter what level of gear or skill that group has.

PUGable means that you can get a successful group together made of players who are not nessisarily in your guild. If you make sure that they're geared, and you have a retard check going on, there shouldnt be a reason that you can't successfully PUG something. Good PUGs will usually just lack one thing, and thats coordination. Coordination is something that you get over time, after you learn the playstyles of who you run with (this is why guild runs > PUGs). You'll probably wipe more, but hey, if the group's good, you'll get the shit done.

Based on these two points, I think that everyone who is saying "it should be easy" or "it should be hard" are kinda "ergh"... anyway I think that the content should be challenging, with hardmodes ontop of it. Keep the fools out, but let everyone experience it... Why is that so hard to agree with?

IMO, if you want nobody but the best in, well you're very selfish, and if you want it to be easy as hell, then you're just greedy for the loot... Games are fun if they are challenging, and if it isnt challenging enough, its boring... if its too challenging, its frustrating. Blizzard has to cater to both groups of extremists... "hardcore" players, you get your hardmodes and your shiny mounts and achivements... Casuals who are COMPETENT can get the content done, and work on trying the hardmodes when they're good and ready... If you suck, well then you should try doing something else with your spare time, maybe the 5 mans.

and lastly, please try to remember that all of the butthurt wont get you anywhere... its just a game, ladies and gentlemen... remember that

[Lordender]

I don't know when you people are going to realize that BC is over, it cost them lots of money rather than made them money when lots of the content was hardly seen by the majority of the playerbase. Its over, it will never be that way again, you need to accept it or find a new game. Blizzard doesn't care about Johnny in X guild that cleared sunwell pre-nerf you are a minority and by no means are going to dictate the way they will add content in the grand scheme of things.

I think most people are clueless at how these MMO's progress. They start out pretty hardcore and over the years it becomes more accessible and more casual. Blizzards new model is let everyone see it and give the option to the better guilds to see it again with more spice with hardmodes.

So if you can't grasp this new concept of the way Blizzard is doing things then its time for you to move on because Blizzard has only gained customers using the "let everyone see it" Mentality and tbh it makes the most sense to me to do it that way when your in the business of making money.

[Hopebringer]

Personally I think that all 25m/10m Normal raids should be more difficult. I'm not talking about spending 2-3 weeks wiping on a boss but more that it would take 2-3 weeks to clear.

I agree that casuals should have an equal chance at 10m Normal / 25m Normal but if you think you should receive 25m HM gear doing easy content then you are stupid. I do NOT believe that any raid instance should ever be cleared the first or second week by an average guild.

[Instinctz]

I still love this casual vs hardcore argument. Like if you spend more time hanging out in an excel spreadsheet crunching numbers...you are hardcore. But if you only raid 4 nights a week for 3 hours a night...you are casual and don't deserve anything? Honestly what has being hardcore over casual ever gotten anyone? Some titles? Hey brah, guess what? That 200+g you spent learning how to do Sarth 3d for that title/mount? Yeah I spent maybe 1/10th of that in a zerg group that killed him. I like my pretty title and mount.

Being hardcore doesn't equal special, it just means you dedicate yourself for more hours into a raid then you should for some false sense of success. ICC will be casual friendly, maybe not at first, but it eventually will be. Blizzard has learned from its mistakes, its better to have content that everyone has a chance to see instead of those who worked out "mathmatically impossible" raid boss kills.

And really, if it is puggable...how will that effect you? If someone from a casual guild gets a piece of loot of the same ilevel as someone in a hardcore guild...does that lower your dps? If I raid 3 nights a week in 3.3 for 2-3 hours a night...and I pick up an awesome drop...will that make it harder for your healers to heal? No, its just a butthurt issue where the FEW hardcore raiders still are locked into the mentality that 2% of the WoW community should be the only ones experiencing content. I guess they miss that feeling of standing around in Ironforge and having people gawk at their gear.

Oh and btw, when I refer to "casual players", I mean players that while casual still have an idea of what to do. You'd be surprised at how many good casual players there are out there. Of course for every good one, there are 5 bad ones. So warriors who gem with spirit or hunters who gem for spellpower/mp5 should succeed in ICC, BUT those who at least took the time to study their class/priority rotation should be able to handle it no problem.

yeah but those who spent the time learning it and wiped it got it when the contents hard, ofc in ulduar gear you shouldnt have any problem zerging it, now go back to when you were in pure Naxx/OS/EoE gear and zerg it, when the zerg idea wasnt even out yet. yeah you couldnt. and whats wrong with those who actually dedicateing themselves to learning there class/spec/rotation actually getting more out of the game than those who just run around going LAWL I SPAM BUTTONZ?

and how does it affect those more hardcore? well right now the hardcores had to gear up from Naxx to go into ulduar and from ulduar to go into ToC, now you can farm heroics and ToC 5 and go straight to ToC, blizzard has literally slapped those who invested there time into raiding the available content in the face, imo the badge system needs to be changed somewhat. IE if any toon on your acount has achievement for KT, Sarth and Malygos 25 you can do heroics for valor, Have Yogg 25 you can get Conquest, when the new patch comes out, have Anub 25 you cando heroics for triumph. games way to easy atm

[Hopebringer]

That 200+g you spent learning how to do Sarth 3d for that title/mount? Yeah I spent maybe 1/10th of that in a zerg group that killed him. I like my pretty title and mount.

Zerging an encounter that wasn't designed to be killed that way and killing the boss the proper way does not = accomplishing anything. (Especially if you are over geared. Lewls.)

[Cheezyweezy]

The fact that it is huge lore would mean Blizzard wants people to be able to see it. Its a huge draw towards the game. If you havent noticed also.. Casual players >>> hardcore players. They all pay the same amount. They should both be able to see the content.

I hate people that give the "they pay the same amount" argument
listen, the content is there
your game discs are no different than mine
just because you go to a sports store and buy the same baseball bat A-Rod uses, doesn't mean that you are guaranteed some home runs. But it also doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have fun in a lesser achieving way.

TL;DR don't expect the great results without great effort

[sicness]

yeah but those who spent the time learning it and wiped it got it when the contents hard, ofc in ulduar gear you shouldnt have any problem zerging it, now go back to when you were in pure Naxx/OS/EoE gear and zerg it, when the zerg idea wasnt even out yet. yeah you couldnt. and whats wrong with those who actually dedicateing themselves to learning there class/spec/rotation actually getting more out of the game than those who just run around going LAWL I SPAM BUTTONZ?

and how does it affect those more hardcore? well right now the hardcores had to gear up from Naxx to go into ulduar and from ulduar to go into ToC, now you can farm heroics and ToC 5 and go straight to ToC, blizzard has literally slapped those who invested there time into raiding the available content in the face, imo the badge system needs to be changed somewhat. IE if any toon on your acount has achievement for KT, Sarth and Malygos 25 you can do heroics for valor, Have Yogg 25 you can get Conquest, when the new patch comes out, have Anub 25 you cando heroics for triumph. games way to easy atm

Wake up, the hard core guilds aren't insulted in any way by allowing the content and gear to be more easily obtained by more casual players. They still get server/world first and that's what they care about, they don't care about the gear. Just because players can do the same content that they did doesn't mean they're upset about it, because they know they did it first and when it was actually difficult.