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  1. #41
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    So what you are saying, is you want to give up Lay On hands. Somethign useful to both PVP (World PVP and Battlegrounds count, hur dur) and PVE, just so LolArena people can get a boost only for them (BGers will not get a big boost from it since there are so many people you can typically live and attack just fine, world PVP is kinda random)?

    Derp derp, smart.

    The point is, NOONE SHOULD GET something that gives them a win whenever they want.
    We'd get a big PvE boon with both a Gap closer and an Interrupt.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Speed Boost for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by canobil
    Why you wanna give this OP class a major buff ?

    Retri paladins have the most easi damage dealing system. They have to think of like NOTHING ! Press the buttem totaly random, and they will blow every thing up.

    Ret paladins wouldent need anthing but to get their burst damage nerfed.

    I play 2v2 on 2400 mmr, and when we face ret paladins, he only need to turn arund and smash three buttoms, and my parther is at 20% hp.. and he dosent even need skills to do that ...
    What a load of crap!! The amount of burst that you are suggesting hasn't been seen by Ret paladins since Seal of Blood was removed from the game. As it stands right now, there are only a couple of classes that have similiar burst to, if not less burst than, a Ret. Those two classes being boomkins and shadow priests against a fully resil'd target.

    If your partner is dropping to 20% from a Ret hitting 3 buttons you should tell him/her to hit level 80 and get some PvP gear.

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  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    So what you are saying, is you want to give up Lay On hands. Something useful to both PVP (World PVP and Battlegrounds count, hur dur) and PVE, just so LolArena people can get a boost only for them (BGers will not get a big boost from it since there are so many people you can typically live and attack just fine, world PVP is kinda random)?
    You claim that BG's and world PvP count then immediately discredit both of them. BG's and world PvP do not count. Considering that the majority of people that play WoW are either arena players or raiders, battlegrounds and world pvp do not get any real level of credibility. BG's are something that arena players play to farm the gear they need for arena and something that raiders do in PvE gear just to wreck undergeared players for a bit of fun. Until Blizzard releases the rated BG's, they will not be any kind of real barometer for measuring OPness.

    Most WoW players recognize this already and don't count abilities that aren't usable within the arena (ie. LoH, Reincarnate, and Rebirth).

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  4. #44

    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    If your partner is dropping to 20% from a Ret hitting 3 buttons you should tell him/her to hit level 80 and get some PvP gear.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    You claim that BG's and world PvP count then immediately discredit both of them. BG's and world PvP do not count. Considering that the majority of people that play WoW are either arena players or raiders, battlegrounds and world pvp do not get any real level of credibility. BG's are something that arena players play to farm the gear they need for arena and something that raiders do in PvE gear just to wreck undergeared players for a bit of fun. Until Blizzard releases the rated BG's, they will not be any kind of real barometer for measuring OPness.

    Most WoW players recognize this already and don't count abilities that aren't usable within the arena (ie. LoH, Reincarnate, and Rebirth).
    I didn't discount them, I'm saying that because you can enter a battle already in progress (As in two people are already fighting) after you just rez and mounted, a distance closer won't do much outside Arena for PVP.

    Granted, I do find Arena players are higher quality PVP players (At least the good ones), the PVP system should not be balanced around them. Also, quite a lot of players PLAY BG's, hence why the begged for it, and why Bliz is adding rated BGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    We'd get a big PvE boon with both a Gap closer and an Interrupt.
    I fail to see this to be honest.

    A Death Grip rip off, which a lot of players have suggested, would not help us in Raids as most Raid bosses (And 5 man bosses), if not all of them, are immune to Death Grip Mechanics. Tossing a Taunt or something into it would cause quite a bit of complaints, considering most people already find the Tank Pally already quite a bit strong. Maybe in some solo PVE situation you could finish a daily a few secs faster, but if you are that worried about it... Can't help you there.

    As for the "Charge" Rip offs that have been suggested. You could reach a boss a bit faster, might deal a few more % in overall damage, but I highly doubt it'd do much. You still need to wait on the Tank in a sense*

    As for an Interrupt, we already have one. It's our Hammer of Justice. Sure it's on a min cooldown, but it's shorter for Tanks (Judge of Just), and some PVP specs (The Imp hammer talent). Also, in a RAID you'll almost always have someone who can interrupt most of the stuff. And in a 5 MAN INSTANCE you don't normally encounter many bosses that need more than one or two interrupts, if any. And in a Solo PVE area, you will next to never need to interrupt, unless you are just farming or something and you want to take one less frost bolt.



    * To explain this farther. Lets say you have a Pally Tank (As of now) and you are a Ret Pally. If you are by the Tank and he taunts to pull and runs at the boss to tank him, and you run by him, you'll still reach it at the same time, same for a lot of other Melee people (Even a Warrior, because they don't want to get Agro before the tank gets there, even if they charge they go light on the DPS at the start). The casters also need to move up a lot of times (Or in some cases, need to wait for the tank to pull the boss back), so they will not be DPSing right off the bat either.





    The end result?


    The Interrupts and Pull mechanics would only really be useful for PVP. And maybe a minor DPS increase. Minor as in that charge might let you get one white swing off.

    EDIT:Ronark, I might have read the meaning of your post wrong, however I still would like to use my post as a response to people asking for stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    * To explain this farther. Lets say you have a Pally Tank (As of now) and you are a Ret Pally. If you are by the Tank and he taunts to pull and runs at the boss to tank him, and you run by him, you'll still reach it at the same time, same for a lot of other Melee people (Even a Warrior, because they don't want to get Agro before the tank gets there, even if they charge they go light on the DPS at the start). The casters also need to move up a lot of times (Or in some cases, need to wait for the tank to pull the boss back), so they will not be DPSing right off the bat either.


    The end result?


    The Interrupts and Pull mechanics would only really be useful for PVP. And maybe a minor DPS increase. Minor as in that charge might let you get one white swing off.
    Rarely ever is a speed increase noticed at the pull of a fight. Being on the target before the tank is rarely ever an issue. Most pally tanks have a macro for Hand of Reckoning/Avenger's Shield. As such, they have huge opening threat when coupled with Avenging Wrath and we can start stacking Vengeance right away.

    The DPS gained by having a charge/gap closer is when we are forced away from the target (ie Auriaya's fear or Twin Valkyr's attunement change).

    Being required to have a rogue or warrior to kick in a 10man is pretty frustrating. Sure, shamans can interrupt too, but if you are using an enhance Sham, they wont be spell hit capped and can easily miss. As a valid member of a raid's melee group, as opposed to a buff bot for the raid, ret paladins are very deserving of a mechanic that every other melee class, minus a druid, has.

    I won't lie and tell you that I want these things for PvE. They would be great buffs to our ability and utility. I am not a huge proponent of the gap closer. I am an advocate of a kick/silence ability.

    People will continue to flame about ret's burst, survivability and anything else under the sun. The fact is that most rets would gladly give up some of our utility to me a bit more like other melee classes in pve and pvp.

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  6. #46
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    Sure, shamans can interrupt too, but if you are using an enhance Sham, they wont be spell hit capped and can easily miss.
    Spell hit cap is very important for enhance shaman because Maelstrom Weapon procs used on Lightning Bolts are their highest source of damage from abilities. A shaman who isn't spell hit capped is either a fresh 80 or is very bad. Other than that though, I agree with you.
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  7. #47

    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice

    Being required to have a rogue or warrior to kick in a 10man is pretty frustrating. Sure, shamans can interrupt too, but if you are using an enhance Sham, they wont be spell hit capped and can easily miss. As a valid member of a raid's melee group, as opposed to a buff bot for the raid, ret paladins are very deserving of a mechanic that every other melee class, minus a druid, has.
    I'm sorry, what? Most Enhance Shamans (At least the ones I've seen, and they pull off quite high DPS) max out the spell hit, as they can't max out melee hits. A large chunk of their DPS comes from spells, thanks to Shocks and Procs from Their Maelstorm (SP?) weapon talent.

    Even so, the chances of you being unable to interrupt a boss that needs it, is well.. Zilch. Even in a full raid of Pallies (Unlikely) you still have HoJ to taunt. And I doubt a 10 Man boss will cast 10 "NEED TO BE INTERRUPTED" spells within 60 secs, actually not even that with the tanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  8. #48
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    I fail to see this to be honest.

    A Death Grip rip off, which a lot of players have suggested.....

    As for the "Charge" Rip offs that have been suggested. You could reach a boss a bit faster, might deal a few more % in overall damage, but I highly doubt it'd do much. You still need to wait on the Tank in a sense*
    My "Holy Grapple Beam" DG rip off works the opposite from DG- Instead of pulling the enemy to us, we are pulled to the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    As for an Interrupt, we already have one. It's our Hammer of Justice. Sure it's on a min cooldown, but it's shorter for Tanks (Judge of Just), and some PVP specs (The Imp hammer talent). Also, in a RAID you'll almost always have someone who can interrupt most of the stuff. And in a 5 MAN INSTANCE you don't normally encounter many bosses that need more than one or two interrupts, if any. And in a Solo PVE area, you will next to never need to interrupt, unless you are just farming or something and you want to take one less frost bolt.
    HoJ isn't an interrupt, mainly because of its long cooldown, being on the GCD, and being unreliable. There are some situations in a 10 man where you could potentially have no one that is able to interrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    EDIT:Ronark, I might have read the meaning of your post wrong, however I still would like to use my post as a response to people asking for stuff.
    What I mean is that having a quick way to get back to the enemy (see above) increases our DPS- Good scenarios would including running from Twins when you have the Light/Dark debuff, when knocked back from Icehowl, or running from Emalon when he does his AoE. If we got to our target quicker, our chances of HV/BC falling off is slim, which increases our DPS by not having to spend 15 seconds re-stacking the lame debuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    And I doubt a 10 Man boss will cast 10 "NEED TO BE INTERRUPTED" spells within 60 secs, actually not even that with the tanks.
    Jaraxx 10 man when you have no Mage or Shaman.

  9. #49

    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    Jaraxx 10 man when you have no Mage or Shaman.
    Warriors have fairly good interrupts, Paladins have their one, DK's have some, and a Druid, I unno.

    But just about every class has an interrupt, and they add up. Also, you can really just let that Fel Fireball thing go off, It's really the DoT that makes it hurt more than just the average spell, and you can cleanse it (Seen it go off and no problems, including heroics). I'd also like to mention that if it was a big deal, I'm sure a guild would have thought of it, and hopefully a Pug group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  10. #50
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Gap closer for ret (late night idea)

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    Warriors have fairly good interrupts, Paladins have their one, DK's have some, and a Druid, I unno.

    But just about every class has an interrupt, and they add up. Also, you can really just let that Fel Fireball thing go off, It's really the DoT that makes it hurt more than just the average spell, and you can cleanse it (Seen it go off and no problems, including heroics). I'd also like to mention that if it was a big deal, I'm sure a guild would have thought of it, and hopefully a Pug group.
    Druids are the same as paladins: Unreliable.

    And the FFB hits for a truck when you cannot dispell. And yes, it was in a PuG :P

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