Haste Haste Haste!

[nocturnus]

You're retarded for going with a spec based on BiS gear which wins in 3.2.2 by only .01% dps and only does so because the BiS gear is low on hit. Now what's the worth of the replenishment buff on your raid? Oh and if you recheck the EJ simcraft thread you'll notice something fun; the 3.2.2 model once again shows 0/13/58 ahead. Funny, huh? :

You clearly need a lesson in manners, I can help there. I can't help you on your amount of brain cells though, those are pre-determined, sorry. You're checking the wrong thread buddy. The Suppression build IN CURRENT CONTENT/patch loses from the ISL build on nuke fights by 15 dps, which basically means the Suppression build beats it by a substantial margin when movement and non ilvl258 gear are taken into consideration. You can go ahead and farm Patchwerk though.

You're the classical example of a player that is incapable of putting simcraft results into a correct context.

If you disagre it's fine, but don't call people retarded, don't assume we have an equal amount of chromosomes.

[zuxia]

Should probably practice with the links. You mean this, correct? If so then you should actually read it, it's a good post.

Here's the conclusion: On average, haste is still a better scaling stat, but there may be certain time frames where crit would benefit you more. If we are looking at total iterations of boss fights, haste still wins regardless of time, unless you know every boss time will fall within a specific crit centric time.

What he's really talking about is total boss time and finding very specific durations in which crit wins. So while a fight that lasts exactly 65 seconds would make crit win, haste would win if that same fight lasted 64, or 66 seconds.

I actually have read it. Had link, but time limit was up. Yes im not saying do not get haste, but haste/sp exlusively is bad...there is another post..might be same one on page two of these forums that shows the average dps of the top raiding destro locks...I come close to that +/- 100 dps on any given fight...consistently and I am not even close to BIS...but yet high end raiding locks on various forums...including this one are saying that melee is out dpsn them or that they are not scaling well. So since the one thing in common with most of them is they stack haste versus balance it is easy to figure out a balance will do more in actual fights versus theory.

[harky]

You clearly need a lesson in manners, I can help there. I can't help you on your amount of brain cells though, those are pre-determined, sorry. You're checking the wrong thread buddy. The Suppression build IN CURRENT CONTENT/patch loses from the ISL build on nuke fights by 15 dps, which basically means the Suppression build beats it by a substantial margin when movement and non ilvl258 gear are taken into consideration. You can go ahead and farm Patchwerk though.

You're the classical example of a player that is incapable of putting simcraft results into a correct context.

If you disagre it's fine, but don't call people retarded, don't assume we have an equal amount of chromosomes.

I'm sorry, did the internets hurt your feelings?

And no, that's not the wrong thread. Check the second list of numbers, not the first. Those are current 3.2.2. 13/58 is ahead by over 15 DPS, not Suppression. That's okay, try to accuse me of not putting things in context when all you're referring to is personal DPS and completely discounting any potential benefit to the raid from replenishment. Good luck with that...

@Zunia: No, encouraging a 'balance' doesn't really result in higher DPS. You're forced into a decent crit rate. Over standard iterations haste winds up being better than Crit even if you have 0 crit rating and 5-600 haste rating. Crit is poorly itemized and the DPS gains aren't so hot. I'm not going to advise anyone to zero out crit, but suggesting that you'd be better off balancing crit and haste isn't good either. If you have the option you should be going for more haste until you're at some pretty high numbers (750 haste, etc).

[nocturnus]

I'm sorry, did the internets hurt your feelings?

And no, that's not the wrong thread. Check the second list of numbers, not the first. Those are current 3.2.2. 13/58 is ahead by over 15 DPS, not Suppression.

Counting can be hard, especially with that extra chromosome:


Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...s_3_3_numbers/

10128 - 10113 = 15 - ISL is 15dps superior on nuke fights, which aren't realistic and assuming you have BiS gear.

This is what I said: "The Suppression build IN CURRENT CONTENT/patch loses from the ISL build on nuke fights by 15 dps"

Grab your calculator and dictionary, apparently you need them.

As you're unable to do it yourself I'll give you a hand:

DPS Ranking:
8264 100.0% Raid
8268 100.0% Nocturnus_suppression

Player: Nocturnus_suppression blood_elf warlock destruction 80
DPS: 8268.3 Error=11.6 Range=601 DPR=25.5 RPS=324.7/247.3 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=16642555#inventory

DPS Ranking:
8138 100.0% Raid
8142 100.0% Nocturnus_isl

Player: Nocturnus_isl blood_elf warlock destruction 80
DPS: 8142.3 Error=13.9 Range=670 DPR=24.5 RPS=332.6/255.8 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=16642553#inventory

[Modez]

Since I wrote the post being referenced, I feel I should chime in.

Let's get a few things cleared up:
- The old proposed haste cap of 500 is wrong. 600 is another good sweet spot, but it also does not cap out there.
- There is a theoretical crit cap. The proposed caps of 28% (on your character sheet w/o buffs) is wrong. You do not suffer DR on crit until later with short fights.
- Most boss fights are not tank and spank fights.

Now let's expound on some things.

Haste continues to scale, with or without bloodlust.
Going below the 1s GCD time for a boss very slightly reduces the effectiveness of haste. If an encounter lasts 8m total, you have bloodlust for 45s, then for 420s you are not at the gcd cap. So in this case, if you ahve enough haste to put you below the GCD for the entirety of heroism, haste loses 10% (actually 9.38%) of its value. So if your haste scaling factor in your gear was 1.4 and this is the case for you, your haste scaling factor is actually 1.26.

Haste has points when you acquire it, that it in turn does nothing, or next to nothing. That being said, that just after that point it can scale up (even past 600+ haste) to a scaling factor of 1.4+. To get the true value of haste, then you must take its low points based off your gear along with its high points within a 150 range to see what the scaling factor is for your gear. Your current crit will either raise or lower the value of this additional haste. The time of the fight may also affect your value of haste. Since there are no boses with, lets say, 100% time of death at 120s, it gets complicated to use the 'perfect' time to die for the tests. Therefore, you should scale out for you in your gear various times with sliding value of haste and crit to see what your average scaling factors should be.

There is a theoretical crit cap.
The problem with finding the theoretical crit cap is that it will change with haste. It will also change based on the length of the encounter. Let's use as an example shadow bolt. As I discussed in my other post, if you can only cast 1 shadow bolt on a boss, your two most important factors would be crit and spell power. Once you add in time, but still have a capped time, for this example let's use 20s, then haste becomes important. If you get the right amount of haste to allow you to cast one if not two extra shadowbolts in the 20s timeframe, haste becomes a large scaling factor. This in turn does not make the value of crit minuscule, since crit does double damage on crits for destro - which is like getting in a free extra cast. So you can see in this theoretical example, that once you start adding time to a fight, crit and haste still do have value.

I know what we are seeking is the 'true' value, but that cannot be ascertained via someone elses results on their gear. If you want real data for you in your gear, you should read my other post here.

Most boss fights are not tank and spank fights.
This is where it really gets complicated. You can alter the time to die in the sim by following the steps in the link above, one of the last pages on the first page.



In closing, there are more factors that go into your actual scaling than many care to admit - your gear + time to die. That is not saying that crit wins every time. It is also not saying that haste wins every time. There will be certain situations where one of the other will win, but as a trend haste seems to win more often and by a slightly higher margin for my gear. Since the margin is small, especially when you begin to consider time to die of the boss, one should not be stacked while totally disregarding the other. Your gear may vary, which is why everyone should follow the post on how to use simcraft and try it themselves, and see what they need based on their performance in a fight.



P.S. The 'highest theoretical DPS' posts on EJ are a misnomer. They represent a very small section of the warlock population - namely those that have 100% of the BiS items posted. When you do not have that gear, those scaling stats do not apply to you. If you have 700 haste in BiS gear, then the scale factor is what is posted on EJ. If you have something like 500 because you don't have BiS, then your scaling factors are different.

[zuxia]

Thank You Modez.

[harky]

In closing, there are more factors that go into your actual scaling than many care to admit - your gear + time to die. That is not saying that crit wins every time. It is also not saying that haste wins every time. There will be certain situations where one of the other will win, but as a trend haste seems to win more often and by a slightly higher margin for my gear. Since the margin is small, especially when you begin to consider time to die of the boss, one should not be stacked while totally disregarding the other. Your gear may vary, which is why everyone should follow the post on how to use simcraft and try it themselves, and see what they need based on their performance in a fight.

Again, I don't agree and as of yet have never been able to produce any result either in game, or with any setup of a sim that is not intentionally stacked to favor crit that supports the idea that a mix of haste/crit is superior to just haste. There are some very, very specific points at which haste is devalued, but never to the extent that crit is. Again a large part of this stems from my running tests with all crit rating completely removed and haste still being shown to scale better in almost all tests.

@nocturnus: Sorry, I glossed over 'loses' under the assumption that you were disagreeing, while in fact you seem to be agreeing, but don't like the fact that I used the word 'retarded'. I guess I could be wrong again, still waiting for an explanation how raid utility and higher sustained DPS makes it a good idea to regear to a spec that has neither except on a fight where there is a combination of target swapping and movement enough so that suppression builds win (what's that leave, faction champs?).

[rfarris]

......including this one are saying that melee is out dpsn them or that they are not scaling well. So since the one thing in common with most of them is they stack haste versus balance it is easy to figure out a balance will do more in actual fights versus theory.

Excuse me. I'm a retard. I can't figure it out. Would you explain it, please? I was kind of under the impression that our lack of scaling had something to do with Blizzard.

[nocturnus]

still waiting for an explanation how raid utility and higher sustained DPS makes it a good idea to regear to a spec that has neither except on a fight where there is a combination of target swapping and movement enough so that suppression builds win (what's that leave, faction champs?).

I don't know about you, but our raids always have: A retri paladin, a survival hunter and a shadow priest. So in your opinion all fights but FC are tank-n-spank? Well, let's agree to disagree on that - just calculate for how long you're running into position, summ up the total and look up the forumula somewhere on the EJ forums. It might raise your awareness.

The interesting thing is that the highest theoretical dps spec differs per character, these numbers prove my point, again:

DPS Ranking:
8264 100.0% Raid
8268 100.0% Nocturnus_suppression

Player: Nocturnus_suppression blood_elf warlock destruction 80
DPS: 8268.3 Error=11.6 Range=601 DPR=25.5 RPS=324.7/247.3 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=16642555#inventory

DPS Ranking:
8138 100.0% Raid
8142 100.0% Nocturnus_isl

Player: Nocturnus_isl blood_elf warlock destruction 80
DPS: 8142.3 Error=13.9 Range=670 DPR=24.5 RPS=332.6/255.8 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=16642553#inventory

My advice: Run simcraft with your character, rather than a pre-made BiS toon.

[Modez]

Again, I don't agree and as of yet have never been able to produce any result either in game, or with any setup of a sim that is not intentionally stacked to favor crit that supports the idea that a mix of haste/crit is superior to just haste. There are some very, very specific points at which haste is devalued, but never to the extent that crit is. Again a large part of this stems from my running tests with all crit rating completely removed and haste still being shown to scale better in almost all tests.

And this is the really hard part. A lot of the research done by EJ (which is good) and various sites revolve around a maximum. This is not a bad thing, as it is what we are actually striving for. The problem is that when patch 3.3 comes out, we won't instantly get BiS gear, and therefore be able to produce the numbers based off the specific spec (like that chart you posted that they make for every tier). There will be fluctuations, not only on a boss per boss basis, but also where you are in your gearing.

It's a nightmare to get generalized numbers. This is why again I urge everyone to read my other post that walks you through simcraft. It does not require having WoW on your computer, so you can do it at work even. This is the only true way to see what you need for how your raid performs and what your next piece of gear should be based off how the stats will affect you.

In the tests I have done haste generally beats crit the majority of the time. You still need crit though. To test this, you will find that if you set your crit to 0 total, and haste to 600, the sim will say that crit is your second highest stat. If you keep these values and then start changing the time, you will see it fluctuates.

[harky]

No, I agree. Despite what a few people seem to think I'm not some loonie. :P It's also why I run my own tests with a lot of different things to try and figure out where I could improve and how to do so.

@nocturnus: You need both a very low life expectancy for your target swaps and a lot of movement for crit to win. It's a very niche group of fights and for the most part it occurs during a point in the fight where most DPS theory is out the window. Dive phase on Anub? What's your DPS priority? Valks? Standing around, occasionally collecting orbs while primarily just nuking one target. Jaraxxus? Possibly on the infernals crit would be preferred, but it depends on exactly how long they last. That's the thing, while crit can win, which I'll freely admit, it will not win on average in practice. Should we regear specifically for cases where crit wins? They're pretty rare and even then the two stats are generally very close.

[Modez]

- burrowed anub (~1/4 of the fight)
- shield swapping/color swapping on twins
- faction champs (they love to target locks - RUN FATBOY RUN!)
- jarax (portal/volcano + add swapping and moving to get in range of adds or running when ass is on fire)
- wendigo (stun dps time is short, crit wins in a short fight but it's also good to get in another free cast, interrupts from being frozen)
- worms (running around, target swapping)
- gormok (target swapping, running from fire)

This brings us full circle to the old point. That point is simply that one should not stack haste without regard to crit. In the examples you are giving, you would be very behind the curve if you had say 0% crit (impossible) and 900 haste. Due to the very nature of fight mechanics, one should not bypass on every single bit of crit gear, because at times, that gear will be more valuable than haste. Generally speaking though, haste wins. I just feel some read into this that they should never acquire crit. If this is the model they follow, they will not understand why they are behind in high levels of gear, since in reality target swapping and movement are normal components of fights.

I am in no way saying 'crit wins, stack crit'. I am saying haste wins more often than crit, but crit is also important.

[harky]

In that spirit I'll say this: Do not intentionally gear away from crit. Crit is a DPS increase.

And yeah, it's not 0% crit, it's 0 crit rating in those tests. The problem is raid buffs, base stats, Int, talents, etc. It's almost impossibly hard to drop under 30% crit on most of your spells. That said I have 380 crit rating, just because that's the gear I have. I also have gear with crit, but no spirit, etc. I obviously don't have BiS gear and I'd assume no one here does, or is even close. I still contend that gearing towards a balance of haste/crit intentionally is a bad idea and both spirit/haste should have priority. You'll get crit anyway and you'll probably replace haste pieces with crit pieces as well. While accidentally guiding newer Locks towards avoiding crit entirely (definitely not my intent), making them believe they should be gearing specifically towards a balance isn't a good idea either. That's how we wind up with people stacking crit gems.

[zuxia]

Excuse me. I'm a retard. I can't figure it out. Would you explain it, please? I was kind of under the impression that our lack of scaling had something to do with Blizzard.

This can apply to harky also...

If high end locks are basically stacking haste..which most are...since over half the TOC bosses are high switch, phase, high movement...

Only 1 does not fit into this, which is twins...

Northrend Beasts

3 phases
Snobolds

Jaraxus..

Inferanals
Mistriss of Pain

on TOGC...add portal and the volcano which have to die I think 10s

Faction Champs

Self Explanatory

Anub

Self Explanatory

So..if most mobs are wasted in 1min or less...which they need to..haste is highly valued..but you need the time for haste to catch up to crit...hence a balance is better suited than just stacking haste.

That is why it is not just (if it even is) a blizzard problem with scaling. Scaling is fine but most are not taking into account of the types of fights we are doing to properly gear. Most are basing it off a 5min tank and spank...which isnt even close to the case.

[zuxia]

In that spirit I'll say this: Do not intentionally gear away from crit. Crit is a DPS increase.

And yeah, it's not 0% crit, it's 0 crit rating in those tests. The problem is raid buffs, base stats, Int, talents, etc. It's almost impossibly hard to drop under 30% crit on most of your spells. That said I have 380 crit rating, just because that's the gear I have. I also have gear with crit, but no spirit, etc. I obviously don't have BiS gear and I'd assume no one here does, or is even close. I still contend that gearing towards a balance of haste/crit intentionally is a bad idea and both spirit/haste should have priority. You'll get crit anyway and you'll probably replace haste pieces with crit pieces as well. While accidentally guiding newer Locks towards avoiding crit entirely (definitely not my intent), making them believe they should be gearing specifically towards a balance isn't a good idea either. That's how we wind up with people stacking crit gems.

And you see many including really geared locks with haste gems or haste/sp...when they already have tons of haste..which isnt good either.

[nocturnus]

No, I agree. Despite what a few people seem to think I'm not some loonie. :P It's also why I run my own tests with a lot of different things to try and figure out where I could improve and how to do so.

@nocturnus: You need both a very low life expectancy for your target swaps and a lot of movement for crit to win. It's a very niche group of fights and for the most part it occurs during a point in the fight where most DPS theory is out the window. Dive phase on Anub? What's your DPS priority? Valks? Standing around, occasionally collecting orbs while primarily just nuking one target. Jaraxxus? Possibly on the infernals crit would be preferred, but it depends on exactly how long they last. That's the thing, while crit can win, which I'll freely admit, it will not win on average in practice. Should we regear specifically for cases where crit wins? They're pretty rare and even then the two stats are generally very close.

Whoa, wait, I never said crit was more important than haste. On the contrary, I always advise people to consider crit as a bonus stat, rather than itemizing towards it. Spell power and haste all the way, for various reasons posten on various forums, many, many times.

Anyway, for me, even on tank-n-spank fights the Suppression build is better, just imagine the profit in real raid situations.

[harky]

And you see many including really geared locks with haste gems or haste/sp...when they already have tons of haste..which isnt good either.

I've seen a bunch of Warriors who could easily hit the ArP cap still gemming strength as well. People do stupid things regardless of gear. They just do. If the world was really just Patchwork, duration and all, then yeah I'd actually gear specifically to get a 1 second Incinerate for BL, but it's not. I have seen people who still do it and assume it's proper. Or people who see that haste keeps scaling well up into the 700s, 800s, 900s and decide to stack haste gems (ignoring that SP scales very well at all points). I've even seen people gem haste in a yellow when they're under 14% hit. >