Engineering for Ret

[Roden]

Trying to decide if engineering would be an ok choice for a ret pally. I want to be either JC/BS or JC/engineer. I know JC/BS is the best for ret dps, but best by how much? (dps)

I know ret has a talent that increases str by 15%, so 2 extra 20 str gems gives 40str, 15% of 40 str is 6 extra str, or 12 AP.
Does anyone know the difference in dps between having engineering or blacksmithing? I mean 12 AP, is that the only reason BS is best for ret? 12 AP out of 7000 for a ToC geared ret pally....

Are Blacksmithing and Engineering equal in dps before talents are taken into consideration?
If they are really close in dps, even as an end-game raider, I think I could stand to trade the 12 Attack Power for all the fun of engineering.

[Ronark]

Trying to decide if engineering would be an ok choice for a ret pally. I want to be either JC/BS or JC/engineer. I know JC/BS is the best for ret dps, but best by how much? (dps)

I know ret has a talent that increases str by 15%, so 2 extra 20 str gems gives 40str, 15% of 40 str is 6 extra str, or 12 AP.
Does anyone know the difference in dps between having engineering or blacksmithing? I mean 12 AP, is that the only reason BS is best for ret? 12 AP out of 7000 for a ToC geared ret pally....

Are Blacksmithing and Engineering equal in dps before talents are taken into consideration?
If they are really close in dps, even as an end-game raider, I think I could stand to trade the 12 Attack Power for all the fun of engineering.

In raw numbers, BS gives 101.2 extra AP, where with Engineering you get Nitro Boots, +1 agility, and the Hand Rockets. Now, I don't know the intersection point of where having an extra 101 AP vs. the damage done from the Nitro Boots/Hand Rockets is better, but in MOST cases having a static 101 extra AP is better.

[Ðevour]

Personally, I go for inscription and jewelcrafting on every single character. Unless it's my PvP character (Yes I have a designated PvP character), then I go Engineering and Inscription or it's my farming character (Mining and herbalism).

The only reason I'd pick engineering on a PvE character is for the haste on the gloves, as that's the only real dps boost you'll ever get imo. And for the money making potential in Ulduar due to break-down of XT and Flame Leviathan.

Just my personal opinion, not based on facts or figures

[Deleted]

In raw numbers, BS gives 101.2 extra AP, where with Engineering you get Nitro Boots, +1 agility, and the Hand Rockets. Now, I don't know the intersection point of where having an extra 101 AP vs. the damage done from the Nitro Boots/Hand Rockets is better, but in MOST cases having a static 101 extra AP is better.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44951# with these engineering wins out if your going for pure dps and the cost is very low so might asweel bring a 4-5 boxes

[ewhenn]

Rerolled engineering ~2 months back, pretty much after the SoV changes were made. I find the rocket boots are excellent in PvE. Considering how long SoV takes to stack up, being able to save that ramp up time on boss separation (icehowl charges, worm burrows, etc.) results in tens of thousands of damage gained. Even in the event of it not saving a vengeance stack it still increases time on target and offers 3 BiS enchants, which keep it on par with other professions even without benefiting from increased time on target.

I actually consider engineering the best PvE profession, ahead of JC. Spreadsheets will disagree, however spreadsheets don't take into account increased time on target, or saving a vengeance stack from falling off.

Real in game situations > perfect world spreadsheet numbers.

[Roden]

Has anyone else made a change like this?

[Ronark]

Has anyone else made a change like this?

Change of professions?

[Roden]

Change to engineering specifically.

[Ronark]

Change to engineering specifically.

Personally unless you have 2 gathering professions I wouldnt bother.

[Astray]

Engineering was always a fun job and always will be.

Engineering funtools are just as good as the normal enchants for everyone, while every other professions has a bonus.
The exception are tanks.
800 armor >>>>>> 10 Parry rating lol xD

[Narit]

Personally unless you have 2 gathering professions I wouldnt bother.

i got eng a while back and i love it. The boots really have saved so many of my stacks from falling off that it would beat that 101 static ap easily.

[Ronark]

i got eng a while back and i love it. The boots really have saved so many of my stacks from falling off that it would beat that 101 static ap easily.

You'd have to do some hard number crunching to prove that point.

[Narit]

You'd have to do some hard number crunching to prove that point.

Its more of an opinion compared to a fact, but since i used numbers i dug myself into a whole.

Disregard that post then, i just think Eng>BS, especially if you pvp.

[Ronark]

Its more of an opinion compared to a fact, but since i used numbers i dug myself into a whole.

Disregard that post then, i just think Eng>BS, especially if you pvp.

I can see it being better in PvP, yes, hands down- But in a "stable" raid environment, against lets say Jaraxxas, you get little benefit from Nitro boots than you do 101.2 AP.

[Pengwnmastr]

I can see it being better in PvP, yes, hands down- But in a "stable" raid environment, against lets say Jaraxxas, you get little benefit from Nitro boots than you do 101.2 AP.

Are you also taking into account the crit that blizz added to nitro boots? How would the static Crit + haste (1 min CD) compare to the static 101.2 AP?

[ewhenn]

I can see it being better in PvP, yes, hands down- But in a "stable" raid environment, against lets say Jaraxxas, you get little benefit from Nitro boots than you do 101.2 AP.

Actually you are mistaken. Nitro boosts are by far the best boot enchant. The cape is 23 agi, 1 higher than the enchant, and the *ROCKET* is the best hand enchant.

I know you wanted some hard math, so here we go.

For a fair example, lets say the nitro boosts can gain you an additional 3 seconds on a boss target. Raid buffed 3 seconds will basically at the minimum give you another white swing (I average about 2.7 swing timer in a raid) and another special attack, I'll use CS since it's on a low CD and also not an extremely hard hitting ability.

So if you add up the total damage of 2 additional seal procs, a white swing, and a CS. and divide that by the DPS difference of the professions it should show you how long it takes for JC to pull ahead of Engineering.

I'll use my gear. First I looked at the differences between engineering enchants and JC gems in my gear, I took a screenshot to compare.

Click to enlarge:

24 Crit from Rocketboots + 23 Agi Cape + Rocket Hands Damage VS. +42 STR.

Difference in DPS = 35

Just to prove a point of how good engi really is I'll even go so far as to assume none of the attacks you gained from the increased target time crit, so just normal non crit damage here. Lets look up the average damage of the gained attacks and sum them up.

Here's the data for a recent HC NRB kill:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=4740&e=5206

3032.3 white swing average
1545.7 seal average
2730.4 CS average
1545.7 sealaverage

TOTAL Damage: 8852

Now if you divide the damage gained by the DPS difference it will show you how much time is needed for the increased DPS of a better raw spreadsheed DPS talent to make up for the increased time on target.

8852/35 = 252 seconds = 4min 12 sec

So if you gain 3 seconds on target by the rocket boots it will take over 4 minutes for that difference to be made up by the JC str bonus, and that's if none of the gained attacks even crit. On top of that the cooldown on rocket boots is 3 minutes, which is more often than 4 minutes needed to make up the gap!

This does not even take into account saving a vengeance stack on boss separation. If your boots allow you do do that you will gain TONS of damage, on the order of tens of thousands.

Spreadsheets assume everything is like patchwerk where you just stand there and DPS. Real fights aren't like this (thankfully, or the game would be boring!). Don't get me wrong spreadsheets are a great resource, but you also have to consider live game play and encounter mechanics as well, which is something spreadsheets really don't do.

I can confidently say that on a realistic boss fight Engi is the best PvE DPS profession.

[Sensei_Sin]

While I don't really have anything new to add to the discussion, I have to bow to ewhenn for his/her excellent work on that post.

I do agree with you (even if I only have my opinion to back me up), I think that Engineering is often dismissed as "PvP" without people really looking at what it might bring to the table on a dynamic fight.

Like you said, spreadsheet DPS is one thing but real DPS is entirely different.

[Tucky]

If you add the bombs to your calculation you'll see an even bigger improvement.
It's a instant 2k-3k (AoE) attack on a 60 sec CD.
No GCD. No swing timer reset.
So you're basicly getting more dps than JC even if you don't gain any 'extra attack time'.

[ewhenn]

While I don't really have anything new to add to the discussion, I have to bow to ewhenn for his/her excellent work on that post.

I do agree with you (even if I only have my opinion to back me up), I think that Engineering is often dismissed as "PvP" without people really looking at what it might bring to the table on a dynamic fight.

Like you said, spreadsheet DPS is one thing but real DPS is entirely different.

Thanks, I'm glad you appreciated it

[Ronark]

Text

I can confidently say that on a realistic boss fight Engi is the best PvE DPS profession.

I wasn't denying that Nitro boots and 23 Agility were/weren't the best/worst enchants: However, on ANY fight where you don't move (Jaraxxas, Anub, etc.) Nitro Boots are useless when compared to static AP.