A way blizzard could balance paladins for the better

[Horn]

@OP: We don't need these our auras changed into stances or presences, because thats what they are; DK presences with different names. More obvious effects from auras would be great though.

@Chronalis: You can be bias. I will allow it so long as you remove trolls. ;D

@Ronark: Hi.

[Alorn]

I just took a quick look at the seals 4.0 post. You clearly left out anything that has to do with Holy paladin and all you did was reinvent the wheel as far as the current seals go.

Not impressed at all. No originality. Not even worth reading.

Please don't bitch just to be bitching - if you read his posts thoroughly, you'll understand that not only is he very imaginative, creative and very original compared to the huge amounts of other "fix-us-threads" you find around the web, but it's also sensible and from a beta-perspective, very realistic suggestions.

One other comment to a previous post of yours, why would you ever want holy to deal any damage? Holy is a healing tree, protection is a tanking tree and retribution is an offensive tree - there shouldn't be any confusion. Yes, other classes have offensive abilities in their holy specs, but I don't think that justifies why a pure healing spec should have offensive capabilities. When looking at just the paladin, taking every other class out of the discussion, I'd like to see some clarification in the talent trees, so the three are separated better.
Just imo of course.

[xstratax]

Then thats just sad, TBH.

I for one would be fine with no Defense cap- Without a specific item (sigil) on my DK, she would still be crittable in Raids, and given her gear, she shouldn't be.

Use Stoneskin Gargoyle, and ench your Chest with Def instead and it wont ever be an issue, otherwise nice gear

[Lithiau]

Sound nice, but aint ever gonna happen, and yeah it sounds alot like drood and dk, but if it could help it would be a nice idea.

[mfreak]

has there ever been a thought about changing all other class to be more like ours? i know for some it will be hard to get the head around but lose the stances and make it so that your choices in talent trees become your driving factor to what your are. stance specific talents would be there but at a lesser extent or on a timer. want to be in prot its a base but all ability's are still there some are better that others. damage goes down but you def goes up ect ect. yes it would be a BIG change and yes it may not work for healers or druids havent played as one yet. just a idea :

[Saranthas]

Please don't bitch just to be bitching - if you read his posts thoroughly, you'll understand that not only is he very imaginative, creative and very original compared to the huge amounts of other "fix-us-threads" you find around the web, but it's also sensible and from a beta-perspective, very realistic suggestions.

One other comment to a previous post of yours, why would you ever want holy to deal any damage? Holy is a healing tree, protection is a tanking tree and retribution is an offensive tree - there shouldn't be any confusion. Yes, other classes have offensive abilities in their holy specs, but I don't think that justifies why a pure healing spec should have offensive capabilities. When looking at just the paladin, taking every other class out of the discussion, I'd like to see some clarification in the talent trees, so the three are separated better.
Just imo of course.

I can see what Shock is saying and to an extent I agree (about his comment pertaining to Holy). Chronalis has every right to offer his opinion, as well. Acting as a moderator doesn't automatically turn you into a politician who must perpetually walk on eggshells.

There's a hazy problem clouding paladin specs going on in the game right now. Prot spec'd paladins wearing holy gear are surviving much longer than holy and outhealing them with large fols. Prot spec'd paladins wearing ret gear are outliving ret paladins and doing decent damage, obviously not as bursty but still quite a bit for a spec that's supposed to offer survivability as its most vital function.

In other words the protection tree is trivializing the other two trees as far as pvp goes. It's not an issue when raiding, but it becomes downright ridiculous when you step into a bg or the arena. I understand Blizz wanted to give tanks some pvp viability, but I'd say this is an unintended result. Prot should never be able to outheal holy, prot should never be able to outdps ret. Lasting forever in an arena game is fine, just as long as you have no credible way to heal your partner(s), nor lay the pimp hand down as effectively as a fully spec'd dps class. Everyone has drawbacks to their spec, and at the moment there's few and far between for prot.

[Astray]

Prot should never be able to outheal holy, prot should never be able to outdps ret. Lasting forever in an arena game is fine

Did you notice, that "outhealing holy" "outdpsing ret" and "immortality" require other speccs and other equipment?
Did you notice that those 3 things sound realistic like 45k crits?
Try going into the druid forums and say "it imbalanced, that you can heal, castdps, catdps and tank at the same time with the same equipment better than everyone else"

Try to think once.

[DaGhostDS]

Lasting forever in an arena game is fine, just as long as you have no credible way to heal your partner(s), nor lay the pimp hand down as effectively as a fully spec'd dps class. Everyone has drawbacks to their spec, and at the moment there's few and far between for prot.

cannot be used in arena
l2p if you get outhealed by a ret or prot
prot doesnt outheal holy, their survivability do

[Ronark]

Use Stoneskin Gargoyle, and ench your Chest with Def instead and it wont ever be an issue, otherwise nice gear

I already use SS enchant, and enchanting for Defense is not smart, due to a.) DR on Defense and b.) The value of EH as a DK tank.

I just happen to be under the cap a lot- However, I do it that way so I can have better Trinkets while loosing only 2-4% dodge from my Sigil.

[opath]

I agree with u that pallys need change but what i strongly disagree is that blizzard should do it

this is by far the most thought of answer ive heard in the last 5 years.

[Samin]

So we've gone from
- "giev paladins stances/presences"
to
- "hey look my very new and interesting idea for paladins" (translates to: "giev paladins stances/presences")

Duh. Roll a warrior and skill up first aid.

[shockpally]

Prot isn't meant to be able to heal incredibly though, that's the issue. Holy has incredible healing output, and while they have little utility, you can't take the utility that was intended for prot just because some players use it to faceroll healing. The issue is that down in the prot tree, they gain 30% extra healing on crits. With say 40% crit, and another 50% of FoL if SS' Shield is up, that's a LOT of healing output, for prot. This is a problem with prot, not with holy. By taking away the utility you mentioned, you're killing Protection PvP almost completely, and nerfing Protection PvE immensly (we now run at base speed, have no silence to pull caster mobs or to close in on casters in PvP).

However you string it, that's NOT balanced. It's easy enough to get kited by a Mage, decent hunter, lock or ele shaman (although generally, they destroy us before we can get to them) as it is, without having all that removed, and not having ANY PvP viability. It's a fine balance to get us right in PvP, and removing utility is NOT the answer to fixing holy. You don't nerf something to bring it down to the levels of the worst, you buff the lowest to bring it up to the standard of the rest.

Season 5, 6 and 7 PVP gear for paladin have 0 (zero) shield block, Lots of resil, stamina and strength. The gloves give bonus damage to Crusader strike. It is a Ret Set. There is also a Healing set.

What ever gave you the idea that a PROT PVP spec was ever meant to exist in WotLK or even intended?

Dont get me wrong i like going into BG's every now and then to run a flag or just kid around by throwing shield on my paladin or messing around with spell reflect and shockwave on my warrior but wake up kid. You talk like Prot has a place in PVP.

As far as being kited by other players/classes? Welcome to the paladin class. There's a reason they put pillars and buildings in Arenas and BG's. They're there for LOS. Use them.

The Holy tree has so many issues where pvp is concerned that people will usually just spec ret or Prot to do anything in PVP. Yes some people have done well with Holy but not as many as the other healing classes. It doesnt help that the only viable spec Holy ever had for 2v2 was nerfed into non-viability just because it was "popular" and also had negative ripples into PVE healing.

Why didnt they buff the other healing classes to be on par with Holy in 2v2? because they cant so they just killed Holy.

[xstratax]

I already use SS enchant, and enchanting for Defense is not smart, due to a.) DR on Defense and b.) The value of EH as a DK tank.

I just happen to be under the cap a lot- However, I do it that way so I can have better Trinkets while loosing only 2-4% dodge from my Sigil.

I understand what youre saying, but all classes value EH these days just as much. If you ench Def though you can use the Dodge Sigil, keep your Stam Trinkets, and only loose 275 HP (which doesnt scale at all with buffs and Frost Pres) for a gain of .75% avoidance (probably more than .5% after DR), and guaranteed uncrittability. Its always better to have passive Def cap than rely on a proc. Enchanting Def is fine since it still provides Miss/Dodge/Parry for you even after the soft cap, and miss has a slimmer DR than the other stats due to the lower amount tanks stack compared to dodge.

Also your Armory shows you with Fallen Crusader, so thats why I had brought up Gargoyle.

Either way it was just a recommendation, since you had originally said that Def cap was hard to maintain/get...

[Deleted]

Its a cool idea, but retradins would still do the same damage..

[Ronark]

I understand what youre saying, but all classes value EH these days just as much. If you ench Def though you can use the Dodge Sigil, keep your Stam Trinkets, and only loose 275 HP (which doesnt scale at all with buffs and Frost Pres) for a gain of .75% avoidance (probably more than .5% after DR), and guaranteed uncrittability. Its always better to have passive Def cap than rely on a proc. Enchanting Def is fine since it still provides Miss/Dodge/Parry for you even after the soft cap, and miss has a slimmer DR than the other stats due to the lower amount tanks stack compared to dodge.

Also your Armory shows you with Fallen Crusader, so thats why I had brought up Gargoyle.

Either way it was just a recommendation, since you had originally said that Def cap was hard to maintain/get...

Yes, but when you compare 1 Defense rating and 275 health, the latter wins out.

[Saranthas]

cannot be used in arena
l2p if you get outhealed by a ret or prot
prot doesnt outheal holy, their survivability do

Are you intentionally trying to be dense? What part of a prot paladin wearing holy or ret gear cannot be used in arena? Every single "part" of what prot spec'd paladins are doing right now is in arena and bgs.

I'm not saying a prot pally can toss a heal larger than a holy (although before the nerf, they could), I'm saying a prot pally should not be able to effectively heal just as well as a holy AND have the longevity to outlast the holy. One or the other. It's not just survivability, obviously.

[Saranthas]

Did you notice, that "outhealing holy" "outdpsing ret" and "immortality" require other speccs and other equipment?
Did you notice that those 3 things sound realistic like 45k crits?
Try going into the druid forums and say "it imbalanced, that you can heal, castdps, catdps and tank at the same time with the same equipment better than everyone else"

Try to think once.

Um, of course they require other equipment. Which is why it's broken. A prot pally wearing holy gear and having roughly the same effective heals while lasting twice as long is broken. Hence their first nerf of Prot, and hence the reason they're trying to figure a way to nerf them yet again.

Druids are completely different. They do all 3 things; tank, dps, heal, but excel at none of them all at once. They excel at one per gear set. The prot pally is effectively excelling at two per gear set. Hence, yet again, Blizz nerfing them.

Try to think...more than once?