Bear tanks in ice crown...

[ElAmigo]

I'll agree with armor being much more powerful now. But I don't think we need nearly that much HP, esp. for normal modes -- with more predictable damage, average HP needed is less than previously (relative to content). I guess we'll have to wait and see what heroic brings, though; it could change things.

well remember he said he has BiS ToGC gear so if thats the case then im sure his concern isnt normal mode bosses.

[Sunshine]

well remember he said he has BiS ToGC gear so if thats the case then im sure his concern isnt normal mode bosses.

Of course, but I still suspect we may not need that much. I think the progression of required HP in WotLK has gone something like 40k (naxx) -> 45k (uld) -> 50k (uld hard / toc reg) -> 55k (toc hard). Especially with the dodge debuff, I doubt they'd have us get more than 60k...

But like I said, it's too soon to say, and 5k hp is actually not that big of a difference. It was really the + that scared me; I have a feeling it will be easy to push much higher in HP than necessary (by gemming stam instead of stam/agi, or something of the sort), and I suspect there will be some bears walking around with 75k hp thinking it makes them awesome. (Not that I'm implying Rikkuu is this sort of bear at all; I know that's definitely not the case. But I know some bears who will say "oh, I saw someone with good gear post a big number on a forum, so that means I have to have a billion HP now".)

[Cerus]

Of course, but I still suspect we may not need that much. I think the progression of required HP in WotLK has gone something like 40k (naxx) -> 45k (uld) -> 50k (uld hard / toc reg) -> 55k (toc hard). Especially with the dodge debuff, I doubt they'd have us get more than 60k...

So you were progressing in Naxx with Ulduar gear? I think not. 25-35k was the average HP for tanks progressing through naxx. More than 40k for Ulduar normal is overkill. Stop pulling random numbers out of your hat.

To the OP and any idiot who says otherwise. ICC radiance has no worse effect on Bears than it does for Pallies, DKs or Warriors. 20% less avoidance is 20% less avoidance. I'll still have around 75% avoidance in ICC as a Bear.

[Sunshine]

So you were progressing in Naxx with Ulduar gear? I think not. 25-35k was the average HP for tanks progressing through naxx. More than 40k for Ulduar normal is overkill. Stop pulling random numbers out of your hat.

You're right, those are numbers after getting the gear from that tier, not just starting into that tier. I distinctly remember hitting 40k in Naxx; uld gear pushed me to 43-ish without trying (in fact, with gemming all agi). My initial wording of the statement was a little different (something closer to "progression of HP", rather than "required"), then I had changed it for clarity without changing the numbers.

I'm sure my memory is also biased by remembering the HP I had during the majority of the time, while we were farming it over and over. :P

I'll still have around 75% avoidance in ICC as a Bear.

Now where's that number coming from? You have 95% avoidance outside of ICC? I think not.

[Mavric]

flash news: bears can parry with their claws :-X

[Rikkuu]

I'll agree with armor being much more powerful now. But I don't think we need nearly that much HP, esp. for normal modes -- with more predictable damage, average HP needed is less than previously (relative to content). I guess we'll have to wait and see what heroic brings, though; it could change things.

i agree with you...but from our PTR hardmode testing... for example putricide HC, or Marrowgar HC...in my opinion, its always better to have a bit more HP then necessary, to give healers more time to move etc. ...i always considered this and it worked out pretty good so far...

[getefix]

So you were progressing in Naxx with Ulduar gear? I think not. 25-35k was the average HP for tanks progressing through naxx. More than 40k for Ulduar normal is overkill. Stop pulling random numbers out of your hat.

To the OP and any idiot who says otherwise. ICC radiance has no worse effect on Bears than it does for Pallies, DKs or Warriors. 20% less avoidance is 20% less avoidance. I'll still have around 75% avoidance in ICC as a Bear.

Raid buffed 44k HP is not out of the ordinary for Naxx 25. This was before our HP nerf too. There were tanks with 50k HP doing sarth 3d. In Ulduar bears got back up to 50k after the HP nerf. I was tanking Ulduar with 44k HP and doing well. I don't think many guilds would take a 35k HP raid buffed tank to Ulduar 25.

When talking about HP most tanks describe raid buffed values because it's what matters. When talking about avoidance it's not uncommon to see people talk about self buffed because it's hard to measure your avoidance in a raid with procs going off.

Kinda ironic that you were saying Sunshine pulled random numbers out of a hat when you're saying you have 75% avoidance in ICC? Personally I think I may try to avoid getting too much avoidance in ICC just because it'll hurt your rage generation when you go to tank heroics or older dungeons.

[Cheezee]

Personally I think I may try to avoid getting too much avoidance in ICC just because it'll hurt your rage generation when you go to tank heroics or older dungeons.

I've actually been playing around with Deathbringer's Will while doing heroics the last few days (I was bored and I wanted the Perky pug pet). I have one of those macros that tells your total avoidance which is normally around 53% in tank gear (dodge + miss). With Kings, agility food and the stars aligned (mutilation proc, DMC proc, mongoose proc and DBW agility proc) my macro shows me at just under 80% avoidance. I'm not sure where it's truly at with the dodge DR, but rage generation is not a problem since you will dodge everything including the kitchen sink and the crit percentage is just ludicrous (over 60% in bear gear, around 75% in cat gear).

[Gasman]

Blizz introduced Chill of the Throne as a mechanic to streamline income dmg on a tank. As stated previously by many others, reducing all the tanks dodge by 20% in effect eliminates tanks from being gibbed and incoming damage is therefore more consistent. If anything, this makes healers job's easier.

If you are so concerned about CotT to the point that you are stacking extra dodge or parry to compensate then you are, for lack of a better term, a bad/inexperienced tank and are probably not prepared to tank ICC. Again, blizz wouldn't introduce this debuff with the idea of gimping one tank more than the other. They did it so tanks don't get hit for 60-80k dmg in the matter of 1 second much like I know has happened to me on 25 man togc beasts.

TLDR: gear/gem/enchant your tank gear as you normally would if the buff didn't exist.

[myo]

TLDR: gear/gem/enchant your tank gear as you normally would if the buff didn't exist.
[/quote]


uh no? blizz basically said "replace stam w/ avoidance." pre toc tanks could have a good mix of avoidance gems and trinkets etc. Now i find myself w/ 1 gem that isnt 30 stam, and all of my enchants are stam related. This ridiculous amount of HP is due to the nature of toc and spike damage. Avoidance will now be > than stam as damage will be coming in (relatively) slower but more consistantly.

And my avoidance inside ICC is only about 30% ub/ non procced. I dont know where pple are getting 75% from etc. My dodge is 25% w/ the debuff, and miss is 5%. Am i missing some other stat you are calculating from avoidance?

[Cerus]

Now where's that number coming from? You have 95% avoidance outside of ICC? I think not.

My bad - was thinking mitigation.

It's also interesting to note (in relevance to this thread) that the ICC radiance only increases overall damage taken by around 5% - for Bears that is. Steadier, more consistent damage in ICC with only a 5% damage taken increase will be noticed more as a buff IMO.

[Cerus]

Raid buffed 44k HP is not out of the ordinary for Naxx 25. This was before our HP nerf too. There were tanks with 50k HP doing sarth 3d. In Ulduar bears got back up to 50k after the HP nerf. I was tanking Ulduar with 44k HP and doing well. I don't think many guilds would take a 35k HP raid buffed tank to Ulduar 25.

When talking about HP most tanks describe raid buffed values because it's what matters. When talking about avoidance it's not uncommon to see people talk about self buffed because it's hard to measure your avoidance in a raid with procs going off.

Kinda ironic that you were saying Sunshine pulled random numbers out of a hat when you're saying you have 75% avoidance in ICC? Personally I think I may try to avoid getting too much avoidance in ICC just because it'll hurt your rage generation when you go to tank heroics or older dungeons.

First starting (progressing through) Naxx I had around 30-35k HP with crafted and pre-raid gear. The 50k HP tanks were mainly Bears with the frost gear on and everything stam.

See my previous post about the avoidance mix-up.

However my avoidance is still quite high. With procs and raid buffed it's pushing 75-80% preDR and around 65ish% postDR. And yeah you're right - it does hurt rage regen sometimes in certain heroics but the Enrage change made that somewhat tolerable.

Overall from what I can see, the 20% nerf doesn't translate into that much increased damage taken as I stated in my previous post.

[Nithian]

And yeah you're right - it does hurt rage regen sometimes in certain heroics but the Enrage change made that somewhat tolerable.

Haven't been playing much lately and I must have missed this. What enrage change?

[Sunshine]

Haven't been playing much lately and I must have missed this. What enrage change?

You now get 20 rage immediately and 10 over time, instead of just 20 over time. It's the best thing since sliced bread.