Icecrown Citadel wholesale 20% avoidance nerf!

[Sunshine]

Besides that, don't cry, the plate classes can still parry (and if you're using dodge or stam/dodge gems you can always go for parry gems), I bet druids will cry harder.

Nah, it hits all tanks equally. No reason for druids to cry. Actually, an interesting point might be shield tanks, who will have a harder time being unhittable (if that turns out to be useful).

No reason to stack more parry either -- you still want a balance for DR purposes, unless you're magically under that 20% dodge threshold (which I doubt, at this level of gear). Otherwise, you'll get to the point where additional parry will be near worthless. They're not nerfing a percentage of your total dodge, just taking some off the top. Gaining 1% more dodge will still require the same amount of dodge rating as without the debuff.

[Kyrstlol]

Blizzard is 2-faced on this. They say fights like gormok on 25-man TotGC are fine because u have to be on the ball to keep the tank up, then they turn around and say its bad.

Except that you can't avoid Impale anyway...

[plagueshard]

Its a temporary fix until cata. I dont mind.
I mean seriously how fun is an encounter if the boss nearly kills you with each blow.

It was fun as hell until I actually started dying.

[Reg]

I think it's kind of funny people are saying to drop dodge gear. I'd still rather dodge 10-15% of attacks than 0%. And for those saying to stack parry even more, in my current tank gear, I am already hitting DR hard on parry, so what would be the point of stacking it further?

[Sunshine]

I think it's kind of funny people are saying to drop dodge gear. I'd still rather dodge 10-15% of attacks than 0%. And for those saying to stack parry even more, in my current tank gear, I am already hitting DR hard on parry, so what would be the point of stacking it further?

Exactly.

[eint]

Dont forget parry. I didnt actually think of this but it will surely become harder to keep aggro when this hits.

What they need to do if they are going to completely nerf the hell out of avoidance is to make Death Knight Rune Strike be a non-reactionary ability and just give it a cooldown that is in line with our current threat generation. I just see this sort of change being an absolute slap in the face to avoidance based tanks if there are other changes that they plan on making to the PTR.

Obviously since this is PTR news it should be taken with a grain of salt, but this is HUGE if it makes it to the live server without the other necessary changes in my opinion.

[Araya]

Nah, it hits all tanks equally. No reason for druids to cry. Actually, an interesting point might be shield tanks, who will have a harder time being unhittable (if that turns out to be useful).

No reason to stack more parry either -- you still want a balance for DR purposes, unless you're magically under that 20% dodge threshold (which I doubt, at this level of gear). Otherwise, you'll get to the point where additional parry will be near worthless. They're not nerfing a percentage of your total dodge, just taking some off the top. Gaining 1% more dodge will still require the same amount of dodge rating as without the debuff.

Its hardly equal to all classes when Druid can only dodge or take the hit. I would fully expect druids QQing over this and rightly so as they just become giant mana sponges again.

[Crazhr]

Its hardly equal to all classes when Druid can only dodge or take the hit. I would fully expect druids QQing over this and rightly so as they just become giant mana sponges again.

Lets say a druid have 55% avoidance 50% dodge and 5%mis

And Warrior got 30%dodge 20% parry and 10% miss so its 60% avoidance

Now both targets loose 20% dodge :
Druid 35% avoidance (30% dodge and 5% miss)
Warrior 40% avoidance (10% dodge 20% parry and 10% miss)

As you can see the same thing a difference of 5% avoidance

Btw all these numbers are made up but that does not change the basic concept unless the warrior gets below 20% dodge which would be stupid since parry then would have the most extreme dr ever then its the same thing. An equal loose of 20% avoidance and in no way makes druid mane sponges again.

[Exure]

Its a temporary fix until cata. I dont mind.
I mean seriously how fun is an encounter if the boss nearly kills you with each blow.

lol ur a noob <3

[mattepatte]

lol ur a noob <3

Darling! <3

[Dessan]

okay blizzard made it official . they dont want this game to have dk tanks
now that we basicly wont be able to use our rune strike and keep agro
we also lose our sigil which gives us 200 dodge rating when we use RS
this is just plain retarded

Yeah.. not sure they thought little bits like that through myself... Pretty crap imo, I already under threat most of the other tanks in my guild.

[Avermra]

I love the retards that go "lol druids will QQ because they can't parry", just like the retards from Sunwell

This debuff will reduce your dodge by 20% after everything has been accounted for. EVERY SINGLE tank will lose 20% avoidance unless he/she somehow has less than 20% dodge. If you have less than 20% dodge, then you shouldn't be in Icecrown Citadel to begin with.

The Deathknight Rune strike ability is a valid concern, but aside from that yeah, lol@ this thread

[Ruan]

Lets say a druid have 55% avoidance 50% dodge and 5%mis

And Warrior got 30%dodge 20% parry and 10% miss so its 60% avoidance

Now both targets loose 20% dodge :
Druid 35% avoidance (30% dodge and 5% miss)
Warrior 40% avoidance (10% dodge 20% parry and 10% miss)

As you can see the same thing a difference of 5% avoidance

Btw all these numbers are made up but that does not change the basic concept unless the warrior gets below 20% dodge which would be stupid since parry then would have the most extreme dr ever then its the same thing. An equal loose of 20% avoidance and in no way makes druid mane sponges again.

Using your numbers, if you averaged things out over an infinite time, the "Warrior" in this case takes 50% more hits (.6/.4) while the "Druid" takes 44% more hits (.65/.45).

Anyway now that I've demonstrated it will effect different tanks differently, I want to state I'm in favour of this. Avoidance tends to make a scale where the more a tank avoids the harder a boss has to hit in order to threaten his life. Eventually we get to a point where an unlucky RNG makes a tank go splat, or a lucky RNG makes the tank take no damage.

Let's just say Blizz made a boss "EasyBoss 1.0". Their mathcraft says they want a 50,000HP tank to survive 10 seconds without healing. Here's how hard "EasyBoss 1.0" has to hit at different levels of avoidance:


AvoidanceDamage
0%5000
25%6667
50%10000
75%20000
90%50000
99%500000


Extrapolate that to something like Brutallus or Algalon where the tank is definitely NOT intended to survive 10 seconds without heals and we have a very unpleasant fight.

[Jonisawsom]

okay blizzard made it official . they dont want this game to have dk tanks
now that we basicly wont be able to use our rune strike and keep agro
we also lose our sigil which gives us 200 dodge rating when we use RS
this is just plain retarded

My post from the news thread.

Tank has 52k hp in the raid with 25% dodge and 25% parry. That's 50% total.
Boss does 25k dps with a 2 second swing timer = 25k hits every 2 seconds.

Over the course of a fight you should avoid 50% of the boss swings. Boss swings 30 times over 60 seconds and 50% of that is 15 avoided swings. A theoretical 15 rune strikes (it happens that you could dodge 2 swings in a row before your next white hit but let's forget about that for now).

Enter Icewell radiance.
Tank now has 52k hp with 5% dodge and 25% parry. That's 30% total.
Boss does 25k dps with a 1 second swing timer = 12.5k hits every second.

Over the course of a fight you should avoid 30% of the boss swings. Boss swings 60 times over 60 seconds, and 30% of that is 18 avoided swings. A theoretical 18 rune strikes.

Congrats morons you just got a buff on threat. But to be realistic, the problem of avoiding 2 swings in a row before your next white hit is still there so the numbers are still theoretical, just like the tank avoidance and the boss swings. Seriously though you people need to read/comprehend/think more. All you read is a 10 or 20% nerf to avoidance and don't read the fact that boss should be hitting faster for less damage per hit.

On another note for DKs, their "block mechanic" of using death strike becomes more effective as well (possibly), maybe about as effective as pally/warrior block mechanics. Really only something to think about for blood DKs but still something to consider.

It's really annoying when you jump to conclusions without even thinking first or doing math. Now again, these numbers are theoretical, and this stuff is not even on the PTR yet, and even when it gets there, it is subject to change. IF there is in fact a big enough nerf to DK threat because of RS not hitting enough or some other "unforeseen" side effect, it should get noticed on the PTR and fixed. There is still the possibility the bosses will not swing fast enough to make up for the lost avoidance, but seriously, just wait for it to at least get to the PTRs and be tested first.

[Sunshine]

Its hardly equal to all classes when Druid can only dodge or take the hit. I would fully expect druids QQing over this and rightly so as they just become giant mana sponges again.

Not rightly so! Don't reignite the fires we're trying to quench over on the druid board!

Every tank loses 20%; druids just start at a higher level of dodge, like Crazhr pointed out. They're not devaluing dodge in the slightest -- it's not like a nerf to the amount of dodge per point of dodge rating. It's just a flat amount off the top. If anything, we'll be able to stack more agi and be less mana-spongey, since theoretically the bosses will not hit as hard per hit (as Ruan points out), more predictably. This means less overhealing and fewer near-instagibs.

[Raptorg]

I don't really mind it, it will probably make stamina more powerful, because hits will be lower.
Instead of surviving 2 hits, we'll be surviving 3-4 hits with luck..

[secret]

the debuff did come on time and how nice will it be to dodge every attack from bosses, and if every tank will lose -20% dodge, why should druids cry? they have armor and much more dodge, and if blizz want to do something they can do it.

and rune strike can be used after parrying or dodging, and if u are good enought to play then u will learn how to make good threat without using it alot, and its alot better then cd attacks and i hope blizz wont add any cd on it

[jimbo_red13]

I'm sure Blizzard is aware that reducing everyones dodge by 20% will have more of an effect than just taking more dmg from bosses.

I don't know much about warrior tanks but doesn't their revenge ability kinda work like rune strike? but instead of on next attack its just an instant attack? Having less dodge will also effect their threat as well.

Doing a debuff that could largely affect 2 classes threat gen would be something I think they would be aware of.

blizzard said one of their reasons for doing this is to make dmg less spikey on the tanks, so with that being their goal, I bet they will also alter boss dmg and attack speed.

Increasing boss attack speed could be a way of making up for the loss in avoidance when considering the amount of avoided attacks for things like revenge or rune strike.

[BoxofRox]

The difference between Casual / PvP Forums and PvE forums:

EJ: Finally, a challenge.
MMO OH NOEZ ICETIARA WILL BE HARZMODEZ.

[Balvan]

I dont seam to understand how ppl do not realise that this debuff will actualy incrise value of dodge rating on gear. Everybody who say thay will pass items with dodge now, are making big mistake. One additional percent of dodge has bigger value when u have less dodge then more. So go for items with dodge even more now.