Thread: Hybrid Priest

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  1. #21
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    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    Another thing to consider - they clearly don't like mana as a resource for melee, or indeed any non-caster. Mana based melee inevitably have to be CD driven, and given the permanent problems that they've faced with Ret bouncing between a joke & OP I'd be astounded to see another.

    A monk would have to have two different resource systems, one for casting and another for melee.
    Agreed that mana isn't a great resource for melee; however, I don't think that's as much of a problem as it might look. One of the mechanics that I proposed was finding a way to use the mana as a way of enhancing the health to give the monk the ability to stand in melee range despite wearing cloth and having lower health. If, for instance, some percentage of the damage taken was absorbed by his mana pool, then he could potentially do a fairly large amount of burst but then effectively be "mentally weakened" and unable to absorb some incoming damage and die. So, he'd want to keep his mana above a certain amount in most cases to avoid getting insta-gibbed.

    Another potential solution would simply be a direct conversion through a talent so that you still get the Spell Power benefit component of Intellect, but you'd lose the mana pool portion. Consider changing Mental Strength from what it is now to something like "Your Stength is increased by 10/20/30/40/50% of your Intellect, but the amount by which Intellect increases your mana pool is reduced by 20/40/60/80/100%". This way, Intellect is still the primary stat for boosting your DPS since you'd get Strength and Spell Power out of it, but you wouldn't get a large mana pool. You might see people pass a point or two for PVP so they could have a bit more initial burst in exchange for sustained damage, but I couldn't imagine a raider passing on it. Similarly, since there's Spirit on Cloth gear too and that might affect regen, you could do something similar with that and Mental Agility so you can convert the Spirit to a somewhat useful DPS stat. Either way, I think those two talents are great ones to effect that sort of change since, not only is it in their name, but it's the flavor of a monk in the "mind over matter" sort of way.

  2. #22
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    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Horrible's Protégé
    A merging between Holy/Dis
    afk crying ;~;

    I love my dual healing specs.

  3. #23

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    Agreed that mana isn't a great resource for melee; however, I don't think that's as much of a problem as it might look. ly is it in their name, but it's the flavor of a monk in the "mind over matter" sort of way.
    None of those solutions (I didn't quote them for brevity) really solve the problem though. Melee attacks have to be instant, otherwise swing timers get reset. Instant attacks that use mana as a resource have to be CD based or dps will be way too bursty. Ultimately this is the reason why Rets & Enhance are generally the lowest DPS out of the melee specs, because mana sucks as a melee resource.

    I think Blizz have come to the (correct) conclusion that melee work best with a 'short term' resource to be managed like energy or rage, and that mana is the ultimate 'long term' resource. I wouldn't be totally astonished if they extended 'focus' to enhance or ret in Cata at some point. Doing that would allow them to limit the mana regen of those specs and get better control over their self-healing, which particularly for ret, they seem to have a problem balancing around.

  4. #24

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    Not gonna happen, not gonna happen and not ever gonna happen

    Take the shadow healer, shadow magic can't heal except parasitically. I can't think of any shadow spell in the entire game that gives health to one entity without taking it from another. So a shadow healer would also be a dpser at the same time, and would either be substandard as a healer or horribly OP as a combination.
    The fallen crusaders in the beginning Icecrown quests (Scourgeholme) can cast Unholy Light. No downsides.

  5. #25

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou
    The fallen crusaders in the beginning Icecrown quests (Scourgeholme) can cast Unholy Light. No downsides.
    Yes and it's holy school.

  6. #26

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    So creating a class would be more balanced than generalizing skills to both factions. How do you even manage get out of bed without falling over seriously.

    If you want a new class or a new spec or something else than you saw in another game, go play it chop chop. Spilling out shit on how awesome it'd be to basically remove 2 specs to make a half arsed one so you can go punch something with a caster is beyond anything I'd expect from public boards.

  7. #27

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Magadansky
    So creating a class would be more balanced than generalizing skills to both factions. How do you even manage get out of bed without falling over seriously.

    If you want a new class or a new spec or something else than you saw in another game, go play it chop chop. Spilling out shit on how awesome it'd be to basically remove 2 specs to make a half arsed one so you can go punch something with a caster is beyond anything I'd expect from public boards.
    I don't think I'm alone in having no clue what the heck you're talking about, beyond that you don't like something. I suggest before posting again you think more clearly about what you're trying to say and how it relates to what people are already saying.

    It may help to quote the person or point you disagree with, it may help to retain a civil tongue, it may help to use commas. I'm not being a grammar cop here, I suspect you actually agree with me, that disc is fine as it is and monks are a flawed idea for WoW.

    I genuinely can't tell.

  8. #28
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    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    None of those solutions (I didn't quote them for brevity) really solve the problem though. Melee attacks have to be instant, otherwise swing timers get reset.
    My solution to this is to actually move Surge of Light to Discipline, or have a similar talent there for Holy Fire and possibly Smite so they can cast them without that proc if they want to, but it would be dumb (sort of like Exorcism). As for Smite, I dunno if it would need a Cooldown since they could just treat it as a "filler" ability akin to Mind Flay, and it would still be bound by critting, or some other method of proccing, so they couldn't just sit there and spam it instantly. The rest of their abilities would be inherently instant casts as basically punches that are infused with Holy energy and whatnot.

    Instant attacks that use mana as a resource have to be CD based or dps will be way too bursty. Ultimately this is the reason why Rets & Enhance are generally the lowest DPS out of the melee specs, because mana sucks as a melee resource.
    Yes, I realize this. I'm not saying my solution ideas are perfect, but it's a possibility. Besides, they now have data to work on how Ret and Enhancement have worked so far and considering what they've said about the changes to Enchancement, I suspect they'll find a way to make them work better, which I think means that if they were to go this route, they ought to be able to make it work okay.

    I think Blizz have come to the (correct) conclusion that melee work best with a 'short term' resource to be managed like energy or rage, and that mana is the ultimate 'long term' resource. I wouldn't be totally astonished if they extended 'focus' to enhance or ret in Cata at some point. Doing that would allow them to limit the mana regen of those specs and get better control over their self-healing, which particularly for ret, they seem to have a problem balancing around.
    The problem with giving different resource like that to a particular spec is that it effectively removes their "hybridness". It works for Druids because they have that resource in that form, but still have the hybrid abilities available by changing forms. Would each ability now have an energy and mana cost, depending on what spec they are?

    Instead, it seems to me like what they're doing is basically trying to force the mana based melee classes into a situation where they won't have any reason to exceed the base mana pool. Thus, they then know pretty accurately how much mana they'll have (give or take a bit for racial differences in Intellect and varience in buffs). Based on that, they can set up their mana regen ability to restore mana at an appropriate rate so it works similar to focus/energy, and similarly set the mana costs of the abilities they'd use to take up a percentage of that expected mana bar. Now, I don't think they can get mana to work exactly like focus or energy, but they can probably get it close enough with that. Also consider some of the other changes they're making, like Spirit being the only regen source for healers; perhaps they're changing replenishment to work off of Spirit or give a flat percentage of whatever resource you use, mana or no. Maybe they'll completely dump those sorts of regen mechanics altogether and give casters cooldowns and whatnot to manage their mana without Spirit instead.

    Either way, I don't think it's a big enough problem that, if they were to implement a Monk-like Disc tree, that that would be what would stop them.

  9. #29

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    The problem with giving different resource like that to a particular spec is that it effectively removes their "hybridness". It works for Druids because they have that resource in that form, but still have the hybrid abilities available by changing forms. Would each ability now have an energy and mana cost, depending on what spec they are?
    It doesn't remove their hybridness as blizz has been very clear - hybrid just means can fulfil two different roles - it doesn't mean that you can do them in the same gear, or spec, or at the same time.

    They could do it by either introducing a talent that converted mana pool-> focus or by charging focus for the attacks and mana only for the (somewhat anemic) heals. Either would work, I suspect the latter would work better as it's closer to the situation that ferals are in.

    Instead, it seems to me like what they're doing is basically trying to force the mana based melee classes into a situation where they won't have any reason to exceed the base mana pool.
    ...
    Now, I don't think they can get mana to work exactly like focus or energy, but they can probably get it close enough with that.
    No, it can never get close enough due to the problem of burst, they'll always have a reason to increase mana pool. Suppose for a second Ret wasn't CD limited but resource limited, and this was achieved by giving them a small mana pool and mana returns from JotW would cover the desired DPS. Then for PvP rets would stack extra Int and do crazy initial damage, ret-holy would be the new prot-holy.

    Let me put it another way, imagine for a second that there was +energy gear out there. No matter how horribly itemized it was for sustained DPS, rogues would be loading up on it for PvP. Essentially all the caster mail/plate would act like +energy gear if mana-melee wasn't CD limited. There's no remotely elegant way to avoid it.

    So lets not start hoping for another mana/melee class, because we might get one, and it would suck. It would have to be CD based and would end up a bad copy of enhance or ret - two specs that are already arguably too similar in feel.

  10. #30
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    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    It doesn't remove their hybridness as blizz has been very clear - hybrid just means can fulfil two different roles - it doesn't mean that you can do them in the same gear, or spec, or at the same time.

    They could do it by either introducing a talent that converted mana pool-> focus or by charging focus for the attacks and mana only for the (somewhat anemic) heals. Either would work, I suspect the latter would work better as it's closer to the situation that ferals are in.
    I think having a separate resource for ferals works because they have to change forms. They can't cast a heal without also having to change forms. I'd just generally be against giving all melee a focus/energy like resource simply because it means that much more homogenization.

    No, it can never get close enough due to the problem of burst, they'll always have a reason to increase mana pool. Suppose for a second Ret wasn't CD limited but resource limited, and this was achieved by giving them a small mana pool and mana returns from JotW would cover the desired DPS. Then for PvP rets would stack extra Int and do crazy initial damage, ret-holy would be the new prot-holy.

    Let me put it another way, imagine for a second that there was +energy gear out there. No matter how horribly itemized it was for sustained DPS, rogues would be loading up on it for PvP. Essentially all the caster mail/plate would act like +energy gear if mana-melee wasn't CD limited. There's no remotely elegant way to avoid it.

    So lets not start hoping for another mana/melee class, because we might get one, and it would suck. It would have to be CD based and would end up a bad copy of enhance or ret - two specs that are already arguably too similar in feel.
    Okay, I think this is the disconnect. I was focusing solely on PVE where burst doesn't count for a whole lot over a 5-6 minute boss fight. In that case, sure, you could dump maybe an extra 10-15k at the beginning of the encounter, but in the long run having that initial burst isn't worth the loss of stats that will increase your sustained DPS.

    That of course is a problem with PVP, potentially stacking intellect for additional burst. Now, I've never played a melee class in arena, nor have I consistently teamed with a Ret Pally or Enhance Shammy, is there a problem with either of those specs stacking Intellect for arena now? I would think it would take a fairly large amount of Intellect to make give them the extra burst, which would mean a loss of other DPS stats or survivability.

    Either way, I still think this problem could be reasonably solved via a talent similar to one of my suggestions. If it's a mandatory talent and it forcibly converts the mana gains from Intellect to an important DPS stat, then sure, they could pass it up, but giving up but then it would serve to be counter-productive because, sure, you could get in more initial attacks, but they'd all be substantially weaker because you're missing out on a lot of Strength or whatever, so it more or less evens out in terms of burst so the sustained DPS advantage ought to ultimately win out, even for PVP. This would obviously require a lot of tweaking with numbers, but I do think it's achievable.


    Either way, I still see this thread as more of just having fun with the possibility of a Monk-like Discipline spec. I certainly don't expect Blizzard to actually make it happen, I just think it's fun to play around with possible mechanics.

  11. #31

    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    I think having a separate resource for ferals works because they have to change forms. They can't cast a heal without also having to change forms. I'd just generally be against giving all melee a focus/energy like resource simply because it means that much more homogenization.
    Not really, focus is different from energy as I understand it - so we'd really be looking at a situation where the current mana using physical classes hunter/ret/enhance all went to focus. It wouldn't be any more homogenic than now.

    That of course is a problem with PVP, potentially stacking intellect for additional burst. Now, I've never played a melee class in arena, nor have I consistently teamed with a Ret Pally or Enhance Shammy, is there a problem with either of those specs stacking Intellect for arena now? I would think it would take a fairly large amount of Intellect to make give them the extra burst, which would mean a loss of other DPS stats or survivability.
    No - currently there is absolutely no problem with int stacking on either spec - because both are CD limited. This is my central point, mana + melee = CD limited. They can't relax that without introducing the burst problem I outlined, and CD limited dps sucks, nobody really enjoys it, it has scaling issues etc. etc.

    Either way, I still think this problem could be reasonably solved via a talent similar to one of my suggestions. If it's a mandatory talent and it forcibly converts the mana gains from Intellect to an important DPS stat, then sure, they could pass it up, but giving up but then it would serve to be counter-productive because, sure, you could get in more initial attacks, but they'd all be substantially weaker because you're missing out on a lot of Strength or whatever, so it more or less evens out in terms of burst so the sustained DPS advantage ought to ultimately win out, even for PVP. This would obviously require a lot of tweaking with numbers, but I do think it's achievable.
    They could do this, I agree, but it's totally outside the scope of the kind of things that talents already do. Making Int also give AP, would be something I can imagine, making it no longer give mana would be a profound break with their existing philosophy that talents are always strictly beneficial. Ok - something like http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31822 wasn't beneficial on grobulus, but that was an encounter specific thing - I can't think of any talent that nerfs you as it buffs you.

    Either way, I still see this thread as more of just having fun with the possibility of a Monk-like Discipline spec. I certainly don't expect Blizzard to actually make it happen, I just think it's fun to play around with possible mechanics.
    Sure, I'm just trying to get at the point that if they did introduce monks then they would have to be non-mana users in some way. They'd need an additional/alternative resource. Otherwise they'd have all the problems of ret/enhance, and we really don't need that all over again. But I love the idea of a monk/martial artist heroclass in principle - so long as the resource makes sense.

  12. #32
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    Re: Hybrid Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    Not really, focus is different from energy as I understand it - so we'd really be looking at a situation where the current mana using physical classes hunter/ret/enhance all went to focus. It wouldn't be any more homogenic than now.
    Focus is a little different from Energy as I understand from the little reading I did on it since Hunters will be able to do Steady Shot to regen Focus faster where Rogues are, more or less, stuck with a fairly steady regen rate for the duration of the encounter.

    No - currently there is absolutely no problem with int stacking on either spec - because both are CD limited. This is my central point, mana + melee = CD limited. They can't relax that without introducing the burst problem I outlined, and CD limited dps sucks, nobody really enjoys it, it has scaling issues etc. etc.
    I think the reason that they're forced to be CD limited is because of the current mana mechanics, particularly a problem with Replenishment; they're pretty much either stuff with way too much mana or no where near enough. In light of the regen mechanics change for Healers, where they will all be using Spirit for their regen mechanics and casters will be doing something else, as of yet unspecified, I think we'll probably be seeing a complete rehaul of how mana works. If they can eliminate all the consistent external regen mechanics, they'll get a lot more control over their mana flow, and thus be able to manage their DPS in other ways besides limiting them with CDs.

    I think Ret and Enhance would be in reasonable places, assuming they get those changes in and make them less dependent on cooldowns because then, in order to get additional Intellect for more burst, they either gem for it, or they take Holy/Resto/Elemental gear for the Intellect and directly trade Strength/Agility for that additional burst. I suppose there might be a sweet point where a little extra Intellect lets them get off one or two more abilities, but if they stack it too high, they lose their best DPS stat and thus, while they may get more hits, they're all substantially weaker, so it levels out and eventually becomes a burst loss if they stack too much.

    So, yes, I agree that CD limiting and burst are problems, but I remain hopeful that the announced changes regarding Hunters, Shamans, and Spirit/MP5 are all part of a larger picture to rework mana as a resource for melee and casters alike and make it more interesting for everyone. Obviously, if they don't achieve that then, well, I would agree that a change to some other sort of resource would be necessary.

    They could do this, I agree, but it's totally outside the scope of the kind of things that talents already do. Making Int also give AP, would be something I can imagine, making it no longer give mana would be a profound break with their existing philosophy that talents are always strictly beneficial. Ok - something like http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31822 wasn't beneficial on grobulus, but that was an encounter specific thing - I can't think of any talent that nerfs you as it buffs you.
    This is true, and the idea I propose is certainly much more in line with the sort of things we see on some glyphs, like Renew or Healing Touch. The concept could easily work as a glyph, but then it's not a mandatory glyph in the sense that it's theorycrafted to be the best, but mandatory in that the spec would be completely unviable without it. And while they haven't had talents with downsides as of yet, I think with the talent reworks, it's something they can do to make some choices more interesting. Like now, Ferals and DKs have two roles rolled into a single tree and the way they currently limit it is just by not having enough points to have everything.

    What if, instead, they had talents that increased their DPS at the expense of some survivability, or reduce their Crit in exchange for avoidance? I think it could make for some interesting choices where, you'd have a small set of "optimal" talent choices, but maybe a particular tank is willing to pass on a little bit of Dodge for some more threat or the like. In fact, this same sort of concept would pretty much be required with a Monk-like Disc build because they'd be rolling much of the current Discipline into Holy at that point. With this sort of method, you might have interesting choices where you get overall throughput but lose regen, or you improve one ability that's great for tank healing but hurt another that's great for raid healing. I think it would not only make builds a lot more interesting in general, but do a lot to really allow us to tailor to our style and gear level and not just go look up the latest cookie cutter build.

    And really, the reason I suggest the talent is two-fold. One, I think it really fits with the concept of a monk that their strength comes more from their mind than from their muscles. Second, I think monks should wear cloth, and rather than have Str/Agi cloth that would only be usable to them or have them upgrade to leather which then goes against the monk concept and would anger Ferals and Rogues, it would just seem to make the most sense to have some sort of conversion akin to what they'd been discussing for Holy Paladins since they're the only spec that uses SP Plate.

    Sure, I'm just trying to get at the point that if they did introduce monks then they would have to be non-mana users in some way. They'd need an additional/alternative resource. Otherwise they'd have all the problems of ret/enhance, and we really don't need that all over again. But I love the idea of a monk/martial artist heroclass in principle - so long as the resource makes sense.
    I agree here. Obviously, if they were another hero class, then sure, it would potentially make sense give them another resource. In fact, I really do hope it's something they consider in some capacity at some point because it really does seem like a real part of the fantasy ethos that is sadly missing from WoW. However, in the context of a new expansion where they can and will make sweeping changes, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the Discipline tree could be brought back to its original concept. Hence, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to judge that viability of that concept within the context of the current mechanics because they aren't immutable.

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