0/53/18 vs 15/53/3

[mudpies]

ok so, atm im pulling ~5k+ dps in raids, so yeh there i am in voa (really skillful, and hard bosses iknoright) and this dk comes in with slightly less gear then me using a 15/53/3 build, using glyph of HB, using a priority of frost fever>obliterate>bloodstrike>frost strike, and howling blast instead of an ob if he didnt get a rime proc. now he wasnt pulling as much as me, maybe 200 lower but still was doing very good considering gear, was wondering the theorycrafting behind this, also people in my guild are telling me the 15/53/3 build with GoD is better then my 0/53/18, i disagree, tried out on dummys(on 100% health necrosis was working etc) and the GoD i was losing ~400-500 dps and the hb spec i was losing an extra ~200 on that. wondering how these guys are doing so well with it.

unable to get my armory up but 3569 ap 187 hit 28.8 crit 36 expertise 220 arp unbuffed in my 0/53/18 spec, only got extra expertise cause got new belt tonight and replacing 8.5 chest with t9 chest after reset so will be evened out.

[Naus]

You aren't Hit Capped yet. That should be priority for you right now. Other then that i cant be of much help, since I havent done Frost dps.

[Maggeddon]

Are you DW'ing? if so you only need 5% hit cap to capsepcial attacks, after that its just white damge that misses.

[mudpies]

You aren't Hit Capped yet. That should be priority for you right now. Other then that i cant be of much help, since I havent done Frost dps.

useful info bro! have a look at the talent "nerves of cold steel", i'm hit capped for specials and that's the main importance. your priority is to look at talents.

[Praxis]

I've never considered a blood subspec for DW Frost. The crit from Dark Conviction has little value with Killing Machine. Very simply, if you have another source of the Icy Talons buff in your raid (or an enhancement shaman) 3/51/17 (with GoD) is better than 0/53/18. This would never be reflected on a dummy however, because of the lack of a 20% haste buff.
Also, a single-disease rotation for Frost doesn't work anymore now that Obliterate has become the spec's most highly-damaging attack.

[Naus]

useful info bro! have a look at the talent "nerves of cold steel", i'm hit capped for specials and that's the main importance. your priority is to look at talents.

You never said you where DW so i assumed you weren't.

[Praxis]

You never said you where DW so i assumed you weren't.

No one with a shred of intelligence would spec 2h Frost anymore.

[Naus]

No one with a shred of intelligence would spec 2h Frost anymore.

Well im bloody sorry i dont do frost... I was just trying to be helpful.

[dr0nzer]

No one with a shred of intelligence would spec 2h Frost anymore.

my alt is still 2h frost....
don't be so insulting...

[Praxis]

my alt is still 2h frost....
don't be so insulting...

Okay, let me revise that. No one who wants to do competitive DPS would spec 2h Frost.

[Offhand]

my alt is still 2h frost....
don't be so insulting...

You're dps is pretty bad if that's the case.

@OP: One disease builds are effectively dead. They don't perform on the same level as two disease builds anymore (at least sinse 32/39 has been killed). The other DK may have simply been outplaying you or had lower level, but better itemized gear (hit cap / more expertise). The scaling on OB, and the damage from PS and it's disease has been increased.

[chronomasakari]

I have the exact opposite problem, I grabbed my 4th piece of T9 around a week ago, have been using 15/53/3 single disease rotation, when I got my 4th piece of T9 I figured the disease bonus would make the single disease rotation useless, so I respected 3/51/17 and I was losing ~200 DPS from dummy and and a bit more from bosses in VoA and ToC that I recall. AoE damage should've been the same, if anything more favourable to the 3/51/17 build since I was using howling blast when KM and Rime proc'd, whereas in my single disease rotation I'd let it sit and use it to reapply frost fever and get an extra obliterate in with the runes instead.

I tried an unholy DW build too, but that was even worse.

Interesting thing I found, when I inputted my gear and the two specs into Team Robots simulator, I get better self-buffed dps on the single disease, but full raid-buffed the double disease beats it. So I'm also wondering if it's a case that my raid missin some key buffs on me that I didn't notice. Still dropping 300 dps from what I've been seeing for weeks makes me wonder

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ogg&n=Caliburn

[Noxia]

Single disease rotations have been a DPS loss compared to dual disease rotations since patch 3.2

Blood sub-spec has been a DPS loss compared to unholy sub-spec since patch 3.2

3/52/16 is the spec that gives you the best possible personal DPS out of all frost specs and 0/53/18 should only be used if you don't have a shaman providing the haste buff.

That said, individual players may find they do more DPS with the easier single-disease rotation, but only if they don't know how to play with dual disease rotations. If you know what you are doing, dual disease rotations will give you more DPS on raid bosses.

If you want a spec tailored only for heroic 5-mans, then may god have mercy on your soul.

[Vaka]

This might be a bit off topic, but I can't help but reply to your comment on Glyph of Disease and a loss of dps using it.

If you're losing dps using GoD, you're doing something wrong. GoD is about rolling diseases. There's an addon called BleedingHearts that displays something that looks like a thermometer on your screen (movable to wherever you like) and the mercury in the thermometer rises and falls in relation to your current Attack Power. At the side of the meter are icons for Frost Fever and Blood Plague and they show at the level your AP was when you applied them. If the meter rises well above where the diseases were applied or caps out, reapply your diseases and simple keep the diseases rolling with Pestilence. With GoD, Pest refreshes your diseases at the same power they were applied at. This is even more crucial with the 4set bonus.

here's a link to the mod
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...inghearts.aspx

[mudpies]

yeh i think im losing dps with the GoD build because its into blood and not unholy(necrosis etc), and the fact i dont have 4 piece yet so my diseases aren't that big yet.

[Gnomatose]

I have the exact opposite problem, I grabbed my 4th piece of T9 around a week ago, have been using 15/53/3 single disease rotation, when I got my 4th piece of T9 I figured the disease bonus would make the single disease rotation useless, so I respected 3/51/17 and I was losing ~200 DPS from dummy and and a bit more from bosses in VoA and ToC that I recall. AoE damage should've been the same, if anything more favourable to the 3/51/17 build since I was using howling blast when KM and Rime proc'd, whereas in my single disease rotation I'd let it sit and use it to reapply frost fever and get an extra obliterate in with the runes instead.

I tried an unholy DW build too, but that was even worse.

Interesting thing I found, when I inputted my gear and the two specs into Team Robots simulator, I get better self-buffed dps on the single disease, but full raid-buffed the double disease beats it. So I'm also wondering if it's a case that my raid missin some key buffs on me that I didn't notice. Still dropping 300 dps from what I've been seeing for weeks makes me wonder

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ogg&n=Caliburn

If you tried a DW Unholy build and did worse, then you didn't do something right. With your gear (main attraction being 4pc. T9), you should consider a switch to an Unholy double disease (technically triple, cuz of Ebon Plague) build/rotation. Your hit is fine, your expertise could use a slight boost, and sometime soon look to replace that Agility ring...however all other signs point directly to 15/0/56 Unholy DW. Try this sometime...I think you'll enjoy it, especially against Twin Val'kyrs.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ar&n=Gnomatose

The rotation is - PS, IT, SS, BS, BB, DC dump ... PS, IT, SS, BB, BB, DC dump

For AoE pulls, it's - PS, IT, Pestilence, DnD (and if you have it, Blood Tap, Blood Boil for some extra damage) ... then just pick a single target and pound away with DCs and SSs

At the start of a boss fight, be sure to pop Bone Armor, then hit Empower Rune Weapon to give yourself that Unholy rune back, then go to work...and if there's a heroism, save your trinkets and Gargoyle 'til then...if not, use them up right away.

[Ragnarokex]

This might be a bit off topic, but I can't help but reply to your comment on Glyph of Disease and a loss of dps using it.

If you're losing dps using GoD, you're doing something wrong. GoD is about rolling diseases. There's an addon called BleedingHearts that displays something that looks like a thermometer on your screen (movable to wherever you like) and the mercury in the thermometer rises and falls in relation to your current Attack Power. At the side of the meter are icons for Frost Fever and Blood Plague and they show at the level your AP was when you applied them. If the meter rises well above where the diseases were applied or caps out, reapply your diseases and simple keep the diseases rolling with Pestilence. With GoD, Pest refreshes your diseases at the same power they were applied at. This is even more crucial with the 4set bonus.

here's a link to the mod
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...inghearts.aspx

this sounds like a really good mod particularly for 4set players. thanks for the heads up

[Exclusive]

Are you DW'ing? if so you only need 5% hit cap to capsepcial attacks, after that its just white damge that misses.

Don't forget about spells.

[Praxis]

Don't forget about spells.

The value of hit for DW Frost drops off really sharply after you cap special attacks. Of course a badly-timed miss can throw off a rotation and cause a somewhat significant DPS loss, but it's a matter of preference (ease of rotation vs. highest theoretical DPS).

[catstyle]

I tried to go DW/unholy , always skipping talents in any Icy talon skill,
But I cant really see it do any good, really, epidemic might give yah room for one more bloodboil in a good rotation, but thats about itm necrosis and BCB dont boost the damage that much, its a boost, but its not a roof-breaker.

My specc
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfV0V...0cuzAoc:TkpMmV

and 5 points in Toughness eh? Why oh why?
Well, we could put that in improved icy talon right... RIGHT?!
But having you to reapply icy talons is a nono and a huge waste of dps, so you will do all you can to have it on via pestilence all the time.

Taking 2 things into account here, Toughness AND Unbreakable Armor will give you a slight raise in damage thanks to Bladed armor.

I see somepeople skipping unbladed armor, its a 1 min cd with a huge increase in both str and armor, its like a free easy trinket, combine it with blood-tap to not ruin rotation.

About the TS and dummies, I always get worse damage with the frost/unholy specc.
Also, I always do slight better then sub-unholy specced people in raids, or its a minor diff (usually have alot better gear then me then)
Making me feel a bit "better" but that can also be a personal issue not a specc issue

Id say the only usefull talents in unholy is actually Ravenouse dead and Virulence.
Usefull as in "WOW!"
Even thou alot of people say that unholy is the sub to go for DW frost, I cant do it, it dont feel right.

Im trying to stick around 11% hitrating, cant recall where I spotted it but someone mentioned 11% is the way to go.