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  1. #41

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    If you are in the upper 2k dps range than elitist jerks is not the right place for you to work on improving yourself. For one, they only theorycraft the current highest level of content, and gear and specs scale so wildly from the start of an expansion to the finish that you are not going to get any use out of that.

    Your damage is low relative to the current content, but may not be low relative to your experience. I would guess that you are new to the class, in which case, you aren't really in a position to criticize an otherwise well respected class mechanic theorycrafting site.

    In your case, I would actually turn to the official wow forums DK board. It seems today everyone tries to get fancy and find some underground site when really there are always people eager to answer your questions on the official boards. Its actually a great tool for learning about a new class.

    EJ is a hard place in an increasingly soft wow community. Its the best resource for bleeding edge content, but if you are a beginner and you have questions, ask them elsewhere. Like I said the wow class forums are actually quite good!
    I'm afraid we have a slight apocalypse on our hands

  2. #42

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    ...

    Maybe read a bit more and use ur head ?

    EJ does not speak about crap gear setup dps... when they say X spec is best dps, they mean in near BiS gear !

    Unholy IS the best dps spec possible when you get 4/5 T9.

    Now, because I really wouldn't want you to work for yourself I'll explain the obvious.

    The 4 pieces bonus for T9 = Diseases can CRIT ! And which build does the most diseases dmg ? (by freakin far...) That's right, Unholy.

    At lower gear setup Unholy ain't bad, but not necessarily the best. In Ulduar gear with TONS of ArP on every damned piece of gear you get guess what will be best ? ... big surprise: BLOOD.

    And so on... Basicly use your logic plz.

    EDIT: Also, you can always ask in here, or on wow forums as some1 else said if you want help... but making a thread like this one is pathetic when ur pulling 3k dps... You are talking about a website specialized in end-game raiding, NOT starting setup.

  3. #43

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Of course EJ is wrong. EJ is frequently wrong. That is why their spreadsheets are on version 20-something and get updated constantly. EJ is simply peer reviewed science. The basic idea has been in use for centuries, and blockhead peasants have been misunderstanding it for just as long.
    If you show where the folk at EJ are wrong, they will welcome you aboard. Just remember: State your assumptions, write down your formulas, present your evidence, and show your work.

    If it sounds a lot like school.... well, now you are starting to catch on. Assuming did a bit better than GED/liberal arts major.

  4. #44

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    EJ is no longer a place for intelligent thought, infact if you're not an officer of the site it doesn't matter what you think, if you say the sky is blue and any of the officers dont agree you will get an infraction. do it twice and you get banned.

    tbh its kinda sad because in BC they were pretty great. I guess they are finally liveing up to their name.
    Yeah, I hate sites like that. They do live up to their name. I had a discussion with a guy from that site a while ago who go seriously pissed because I prove him wrong. He spouted off a bunch of formulas, etc and I tried telling him "that all looks great on paper but..." and when he applied practical, he found out I was right and stopped posting in the forum. I wasn't even being a "jerk" (no pun intended). I was just helping some new guy answer some questions while he kept intervening and saying "this is incorrect... blah blah blah."

  5. #45

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    If you think that ej is wrong then for the good of the raiding community go and contribute. They aren't going to stick to what they believe now if you are able to provide reliable evidence to the contrary. This is how science works as someone said earlier.

    If you end up getting banned then you're probably just trying to be a snowflake though, in which case you're useless.

  6. #46

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Pure, theorycraft sites by nature, become unreliable depending on how raids go, I guess it's "fun" to find your theoretical dps, but when you're actually fighting you need to do more than a calculated rotation (see C'thun).



    And yes there is a difference between

    1) Sites that ban you for being wrong(even though this alone is retarded, no one is right all the time)
    2) Sites that ban you for disagreeing with the mods/officers(Hint Hint, EJ)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You are correct that a lot of players moan about things being too easy without having seen the content personally. We definitely place less emphasis on their feedback than on people who have actually tried those encounters.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1&pageNo=4#72

  7. #47
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    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    At least on the tanking DK forum we all get along just fine.
    Sure there are some people asking "i haz new specc and diz is ma armury. Now tell me if it be gud!" And those get banned pretty quickly.

    But at least when talking to the people on EJ through PMs (I don't really post that often on the board itself) They are ok and if you can back up your theories, they will approve them.

  8. #48

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Diabeetus
    Pure, theorycraft sites by nature, become unreliable depending on how raids go, I guess it's "fun" to find your theoretical dps, but when you're actually fighting you need to do more than a calculated rotation (see C'thun).



    And yes there is a difference between

    1) Sites that ban you for being wrong(even though this alone is retarded, no one is right all the time)
    2) Sites that ban you for disagreeing with the mods/officers(Hint Hint, EJ)
    Grats, Einstein, thanks for telling us that theorycrafted DPS won't match IRL raid DPS. Your breakthrough is amazing.

    The point of theorycraft max isn't to crystal ball predict your DPS. It's to maximize your DPS.

    Let's take 2 identically geared toons played by two absolutely identical clones. One has specced the theorycraft max damage spec. The other has not. Both go to the same raid and do the exact same thing. I predict that neither will reach the "max DPS" shown by, say Rawr. I also predict that one will do better than the other. Can you guess which one?

    EJ didn't ban you for disagreeing. They banned you for stupidity. I can tell from just the above post.

    My first post on EJ was something 100% totally factually absolutely wrong. Wrong as wrong could be. I didn't get banned. Why? Because I showed up with a question, a hypothesis, and numbers.

    It just turned out that there was another, better explanation for my numbers. They don't ban you for disagreeing. Or being wrong. They ban you for being a jackass.

  9. #49

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrodeath
    Yeah, I hate sites like that. They do live up to their name. I had a discussion with a guy from that site a while ago who go seriously pissed because I prove him wrong. He spouted off a bunch of formulas, etc and I tried telling him "that all looks great on paper but..." and when he applied practical, he found out I was right and stopped posting in the forum. I wasn't even being a "jerk" (no pun intended). I was just helping some new guy answer some questions while he kept intervening and saying "this is incorrect... blah blah blah."
    Your story sounds a little odd, but it sounds like someone new to the site was stating their data was right and you proved him wrong? Well not every "noob" posting there is right, just as with any site. If you actually check the main posts of the forums, that is where you generally find all the correct info. If you meant you proved a reliable and respected member of the site wrong with your obvious "practical data", please share the thread, I'd be interested to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jontaxe
    Of course EJ is wrong. EJ is frequently wrong. That is why their spreadsheets are on version 20-something and get updated constantly. EJ is simply peer reviewed science. The basic idea has been in use for centuries, and blockhead peasants have been misunderstanding it for just as long.
    If you show where the folk at EJ are wrong, they will welcome you aboard. Just remember: State your assumptions, write down your formulas, present your evidence, and show your work.

    If it sounds a lot like school.... well, now you are starting to catch on. Assuming did a bit better than GED/liberal arts major.
    Well they update their spreadsheets for almost any minor update or hotfix as well as any mistakes they make while programming etc. So even if a program never had a known mistake or bug, it would still be revised often.

    The latter half of your post is very true and it's what most people miss. I don't know the situation with Tun, but I bet that if he had posted multiple WWS reports showing that his data could otherwise disprove the data they had they would be more likely to listen. Just simply stating that someone is wrong is not proof. Showing DETAILED data from WWS or recount, or other available tools, showing your calculations AND all the work in the calculations (so multiple people can check it) is how you prove something is wrong. Think about it this way. If 1,000 people check something multiple times and find no problem with it, and then 1 person says it is wrong with no proof, who would you believe?

  10. #50

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by jontaxe
    Grats, Einstein, thanks for telling us that theorycrafted DPS won't match IRL raid DPS. Your breakthrough is amazing.

    The point of theorycraft max isn't to crystal ball predict your DPS. It's to maximize your DPS.

    Let's take 2 identically geared toons played by two absolutely identical clones. One has specced the theorycraft max damage spec. The other has not. Both go to the same raid and do the exact same thing. I predict that neither will reach the "max DPS" shown by, say Rawr. I also predict that one will do better than the other. Can you guess which one?

    EJ didn't ban you for disagreeing. They banned you for stupidity. I can tell from just the above post.

    My first post on EJ was something 100% totally factually absolutely wrong. Wrong as wrong could be. I didn't get banned. Why? Because I showed up with a question, a hypothesis, and numbers.

    It just turned out that there was another, better explanation for my numbers. They don't ban you for disagreeing. Or being wrong. They ban you for being a jackass.
    That sums it up pretty well.

    Yea, EJ bans a lot of people. They ban people who ask stupid questions. A lot of people ask stupid questions.

    I remember seeing one guy ask some basic question. I can't even remember what it was. something like "what's the current best DPS spec" and he got banhammered. Why? Because in the first post of that thread it said specifically to NOT ASK THAT QUESTION in the thread, it's what the simple questions and simple answers thread was for.

    I may have his question wrong, but the point is the same. IF you go to EJ and just start asking questions that have already been answered (and in detail) they'll ban you. They have no tolerance for stupidity. Read the posts, post in the proper thread, and come with FACTS if you have a theory, and you won't be banned.

    Simply stated: most mmo champion posters are too dumb, lazy, or undisciplined to post on EJ.

    TO THE OP:

    EJ generally posts about END GAME maximized DPS. If you are doing 3k DPS then you are not even remotely close to endgame. There is also the possibility that you're doing the rotation wrong. Since oblit was removing diseases, obviously you were, since you shouldn't have been using oblit. If you were "accidentally" using oblit or something, it's still clear that you are not familiar with the rotation.

    What you're doing is kinda like buying a car that is supposed to get 30mpg, then driving it around gunning it as much as possible then slamming on the brakes, then gunning it again rinse repeat, and then asking "Is the EPA WRONG? MY MILEAGE IS WAY LOW!"

    MORE TO THE OP
    Oh dear god, I just checked out your armory. If you're doing 3k in that gear I can tell you several things
    1) you're being carried
    2) You don't know how to DPS as a DK

  11. #51

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmoku
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...els&n=Katzghan

    OK, got a small problem. I used Elitist Jerks' recent Unholy thread and the 17/0/54 build (See: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t72364-u...i_ever_wanted/ ) to try out returning to a 2-hand weapon build after putting a DW Frost setup through some paces. I followed the guidelines (Proper runeforged weapon, gems for almost nothing but strength, aimed for the hit cap, etc.) and I found I am doing several hundred DPS LESS (I'm doing 2900 compared to 3100 on average) than my previous Frost build. Biggest thing to get used to was the fact Obliterate was consuming Diseases every hit, so I decided to completely remove it from my hotbars. But after some testing in both Heroics, Raids, and simple wailing on target dummies, it's hard to maintain around 3000 DPS. I float around 2900-2950 DPS with Horn of Winter active along with Victor's Call active. I can spike to 3100 if I time swings right, but it's mostly luck of the draw.

    So, I pose this question. Is Elitist Jerks somewhat wrong in the fact that Unholy can have better sustained DPS or am I missing an important point in my setup?
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&n=Tarquinius

    This is my armory. I've pulled up to 7600dps on a single target non-gimmick fight as UH.

    Don't use Obliterate, SS is where its at right now.

    Switching out some Arp pieces and scrounging out some Exp could help. (someone mentioned earlier switching the T9 legs for the helm.) Now when you switch out some of the Arp stuff dont get rid of it because come 3.3 it WILL be good for UH considering the shadow portion of SS's dmg is based on the melee portion that IS affected by Arp.

    Swap out your haste gems. Its a good stat but not enough to gem for. Swap your meta gem for the 21agi one, its better in raids(kings) and makes you lose 1 less gem slot on some crap blue gem in which you can place a prismatic and not have to gem blue or yellow.

  12. #52

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigjenk
    The sad thing was he was right and it took them around another couple weeks to run thier number and see that they were incorrect all the while officers there had been telling him he was wrong despite the fact that he probably pulls more dps than any of them. I just dont agree with the fact that the staff their take a holier than jesus im so smart approach to others when there are better theorycrafting sites run for most classes elsewhere. They do a very bad job at theorycrafting when they speak as if everything is an absolute truth, but unfortunately the average wow player takes their word as scripture due to them not being able or willing to test stuff for themselves.

    All they do is run simulators with skill priorities or rotations, unfortunately most people their are stuck to that rather than a live raid application with movement changing targets etc. they just stick to "simulator says.."
    His attitude was also the cause of his ban... he kept saying all sim tools or spreadsheets are wrong, simply because his logic is that they are wrong... or cause he wasn't able to reach said numbers... Kept arguing that using FB once in while when you get crit streak was lower dps without even wanting to TRY IT OUT...

    So basicly he kept saying: Am right and you're wrong, cause I said so ! ... To top it all he was going on about not relying on said tools... but asking for others to perform test on them...

    He asked for wws of some1 performing better with FB's.
    Someone shows him one... so he then says it's all because of the lucky 70% crit on shred, without counting the UN-lucky 35% crit on rake... which evens out...

    Basicly he was arguing like a child with his ears plugged not even reading everything ppl were responding, but only the parts that could help his arguments.

    Also for the record... he was wrong... throwing FB's when you're overflowed with CP's (crit streak) IS and will always remain a dps increase. In particular when you're almost ArP capped like he is.

  13. #53

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by wanax
    in which you can place a prismatic and not have to gem blue or yellow.
    Actually, gemming yellow is back in. My current EP values are such that gemming 10str/10crit for a socket bonus of >=4str is better than 20str in that spot.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gwraith/simple (8/8 H T13; 7/7 H T12 - F.U. Ragnaros)
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  14. #54

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    For the most part, until 3.3, it's all to-the-point theory-crafting. This build relies heavily on SS' damage output being equalized to Obliterate's. Initially they'd closed this thread as of 3.2 due to how heavily Unholy was nerfed, SS--upon which Unholy heavily relies--taking the brunt. With what they are planning to do with 3.3 and therein, it has been reopened, but really isn't intended for use until--as stated--the implementation of 3.3. Until then, Unholy remains in a dark, quiet mausoleum.

    Additionally, you do [not] follow everything as stated. For one, your gemming has been scrutinized and criticised thoroughly by your fellow posters. More importantly, you are [not] following the build specified and explained extensively by the poster of the thread in question (personally, I disagree on Unholy Blight; I feel it's relatively useless, especially if he isn't willing to throw enough into Morbidity). Reaping is far too important a talent to leave out, and to use it properly, you must follow the requisite rotation. Attempt verifying your data by way of the PTRs, for now, if you've not already. Your numbers should oppose impose more under the right build, and patch.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  15. #55

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zka
    Even Tun of Ensidia got banned recently for not knowing 2) and 3). They don't care who you are, if you're stupid, you get banned. EJ is not a forgiving community like this one or most other wow forums where you can post retarded shit and get away with it.
    Oddly enough, I looked at the thread he got banned for, I didn't see him do anything different than most of the "regulars" there. So, if your purpose was to, somehow, imply that he was either a moron, or just a jerk (at least, more so than the rest of them), I don't see any evidence to support that. Were you assuming no one would actually follow the link and read it?

    If anything, from what I can tell, the biggest D-bag was the administrator who implemented the ban, who came across as childish, insecure, and even a little jealous. "You suck, because you're stupid and you suck" seems like some pretty "retarded shit" to me. In fact the administrator thinks he's being cute when he admits that he's being a childish D-bag:

    "We don't need you and your accusatory, superior tone here - that's what I'm for. "

    But yet I'm supposed to have blind faith in people who are as dramatic and emotional as these guys? Sure their math COULD all be flawless, but from my perspective, I have no way to tell because alot of it doesn't make any sense to me. So from my (and probably most people's) perspective, aside from having a community full of people who revel in being a-holes to validate their work, I have just as much reason to believe an EJ poster as to believe a random baddie from my server's Trade channel.

    Fortunately I:

    a) Have a brain
    b) Can come to my own conclusions about things
    c) Don't raid with a bunch of raging a-holes, so I don't have to wave my johnson around in the air to establish myself in the pecking order for some sort of coming-of-age re-enactment from a high school locker room.

    So it's all pretty moot from where I'm standing, but I just thought I'd put that out there since you seemed so sure of yourself.

  16. #56

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by PopeJamal
    Oddly enough, I looked at the thread he got banned for, I didn't see him do anything different than most of the "regulars" there. So, if your purpose was to, somehow, imply that he was either a moron, or just a jerk (at least, more so than the rest of them), I don't see any evidence to support that. Were you assuming no one would actually follow the link and read it?

    If anything, from what I can tell, the biggest D-bag was the administrator who implemented the ban, who came across as childish, insecure, and even a little jealous. "You suck, because you're stupid and you suck" seems like some pretty "retarded shit" to me. In fact the administrator thinks he's being cute when he admits that he's being a childish D-bag:

    "We don't need you and your accusatory, superior tone here - that's what I'm for. "

    But yet I'm supposed to have blind faith in people who are as dramatic and emotional as these guys? Sure their math COULD all be flawless, but from my perspective, I have no way to tell because alot of it doesn't make any sense to me. So from my (and probably most people's) perspective, aside from having a community full of people who revel in being a-holes to validate their work, I have just as much reason to believe an EJ poster as to believe a random baddie from my server's Trade channel.

    Fortunately I:

    a) Have a brain
    b) Can come to my own conclusions about things
    c) Don't raid with a bunch of raging a-holes, so I don't have to wave my johnson around in the air to establish myself in the pecking order for some sort of coming-of-age re-enactment from a high school locker room.

    So it's all pretty moot from where I'm standing, but I just thought I'd put that out there since you seemed so sure of yourself.
    Frankly, if you can't follow the math then you aren't meant to be participating in the discussions. That's kind of the point of it being elitist jerks. The discussion is reserved for the theory crafters that can understand the math, find flaws, and places to make improvements. It is not for everyone.

    We live in such a carebear world these days where everyone wants to participate in everything. It doesn't work like that. You also probably won't get to be a rocket scientist, despite what your parents told you.

    I'm not saying theorycrafting is rocket science. I'm saying it's not for everyone, and I respect EJ for keeping people who would only hinder the progress out of the community.

    People who can't follow the math are still welcome to look at the conclusions. EJ is not some math tutor sight though. It is the number 1 source of theorycrafting because of that, because it doesn't let its threads devolve into "but why is STR the best? i still don't understand"

  17. #57

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by PopeJamal
    alot of it doesn't make any sense to me.

    Fortunately I:
    a) Have a brain
    Submitted without comment.

  18. #58

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmoku
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...els&n=Katzghan

    OK, got a small problem. I used Elitist Jerks' recent Unholy thread and the 17/0/54 build (See: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t72364-u...i_ever_wanted/ ) to try out returning to a 2-hand weapon build after putting a DW Frost setup through some paces. I followed the guidelines (Proper runeforged weapon, gems for almost nothing but strength, aimed for the hit cap, etc.) and I found I am doing several hundred DPS LESS (I'm doing 2900 compared to 3100 on average) than my previous Frost build. Biggest thing to get used to was the fact Obliterate was consuming Diseases every hit, so I decided to completely remove it from my hotbars. But after some testing in both Heroics, Raids, and simple wailing on target dummies, it's hard to maintain around 3000 DPS. I float around 2900-2950 DPS with Horn of Winter active along with Victor's Call active. I can spike to 3100 if I time swings right, but it's mostly luck of the draw.

    So, I pose this question. Is Elitist Jerks somewhat wrong in the fact that Unholy can have better sustained DPS or am I missing an important point in my setup?
    EJ was always meant to be a discussion, not "This is how you should play". Start reading more of the threads about why you should do these things, and I bet this question doesn't come up.

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire cydri's Avatar
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    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by xnickybx
    That's cool, that part was just a joke anyway, you crazy wow rebel you. But now I'm gonna assume you drink mountain dew. The ads got you huh? Or maybe the Warcraft labels on the cans? See where I'm goin?
    Actually no I dont drink mountain dew.

  20. #60

    Re: Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Bojangles
    If you noticed so many errors that stuck right out, why didnt you correct them?
    Because EJ has a history of suppressing info, even info that's backed up with statistics and raw data, when it conflicts with the general accepted opinion of their regular authors and moderators.

    Re: Arcane vs Fire in TBC prior to 4pc T6
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    The Arms warrior has pet names for all his weapons, while the Fury warrior shows up for battle drunk and half clothed.

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