Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

[Deleted]

Dont use me as an example. I posted like I did on EJ well aware that I was going to get banned. I dont care about EJ; I never have. The fact was that FBN was starting to be the biggest disservice to the Feral community. Why? Because FBN is wrong, and its a shitty simulator. It needed to be addressed and nobody else was doing it. I was right in all of my observations.

I don't think I'm allowed to quote from the Benefactors Bar but in there I even got defended by fellow Feral Druids from vodka and Juggernaut. So essentially, it comes down to scrubs blindly praising the theorycrafting tools and the better players knowing better. In FBN's case I said what I had to, in part because the people using the simulator were being stupid and in part because the program itself is flawed and wrong.

Nopher linked me some other simulator that was right on the money, using the exact rotation I advocated. I cant remember the name but it just proves that there are more reliable sources out there.

My point still stands: EJ sucks. Look at the FBN thread. Because its on EJ people think its gold, even if its a pile of shit. It's the same kind of logic people use when they blindly believe anything I say. Just because I play in a good guild doesn't mean I'm right. In this case, however, I am.

[Gilian]

Because you find a mistake on a forum doesn't mean everything in it sucks and is wrong.
And if you would discuss such an error in a normal way with good arguments and facts then i doubt people on EJ would just ignore and ban you.

Also OP should read the whole unholy thread/blog first before he starts claiming it's not right. You didn't read about stats or the rotation at all.

[Shinoashi]

To the OP. I did not read this entire thread and I apologize if this has already been stated (don't want to be that double post guy). But one of your main problems is the exp trinket. That trinket is absolutely useless for 2h. You will maybe get off 3 hits before the timer runs out. Making it utterly useless (second useless just to prove my point.) Other than that, t9 4 set works much better with crit gems, so drop the haste for unholy. I stack haste for my DW but is absolutely useless for 2h unholy dps. That might be one huge reason why your dps is lacking. Other than that your gear is pretty solid so unless your rotation is wrong I don't know what else to tell ya. Other than comes with time and you'll find your nitch eventually

[arantes]

Dont use me as an example. I posted like I did on EJ well aware that I was going to get banned. I dont care about EJ; I never have. The fact was that FBN was starting to be the biggest disservice to the Feral community. Why? Because FBN is wrong, and its a shitty simulator. It needed to be addressed and nobody else was doing it. I was right in all of my observations.

Problem is you didn't address it correctly. You should have 1. Presented a hypothesis, 2. Proposed means by which it could be tested or better yet, tested it yourself.

One of the first replies to you on that thread made a very good point: you rely on EJ theorycrafting all the time in WoW, you just take most of it for granted. You rely on it to tell you how much hit rating you need for example.

You see, the thing about EJ is, as has been said before, it provides a forum for players to review theories about the game and the maths behind the game. You can say you don't like it all you want but that just turns you into the WoW version of a creationist - the person who goes around saying "I don't believe in Evolution" but trusts modern medicine or has no problem using a computer even though those technologies only sprung up thanks to the very methods that person rejects. Don't fool yourself into thinking you made some sort of breakthrough, you simply stumbled across something thanks to your situation, someone else, Allev in this case (and perhaps others), made the actual discovery by testing things, you know, doing the actual work and thinking that you did not do.

Couple that with your inability to follow rules and it's not a surprise you were banned.

It's funny because I had this sort of illusion when I was younger (and before I played MMOs) that "fellow gamers" were all intelligent, capable of critical thinking and excellent reading comprehension. It probably comes from the extremely small number of people I went to school with - there just weren't that many idiots to be exposed to. Sadly, the "nerd" population on WoW (and gaming in general) is not comprised only of those nerds who do well on tests and understand science and maths, they're just as varied as the general population with idiots nerds even more prevalent than intelligent ones.

So when you go to a place like EJ, try putting your thinking cap on first and bring the following skills:

1- Reading Comprehension
2- Critical Thinking
3- the ability to follow rules
4- and perhaps most importantly: drop this entitlement attitude so many people have that makes them think they have a right to post anywhere and to be treated nicely. Expect to be criticized. Everyone on EJ is human and while they do good work they are indeed subject to human flaws. (Again, people in this thread who have criticized EJ by saying "they're human, they can be wrong" are so off the mark it's hilarious. It's another fallacy, after all, I'm not aware of any, well, human being, that's not human.) So if you go to EJ be prepared to be bashed if you offer opinions contrary to the current wisdom and understand that this is normal - if you want to beat the current wisdom you can only do so by working within the framework of testing and theorycrafting and producing something better than what currently exists.

If you don't have the time or patience or skill to do so then kindly sit back and watch. Encourage others to do so if they have the mathematical/statistical skill set. Don't take stuff personally and storm off thinking "well it turns out I was right so HA!" unless you want to take the side of ignorance.

[Frank7734]

I really can't stand these little "independent snow-flake" types.

When you're playing your class you need to:
A.) Learn your class, read what your moves do and learn how you use them.
B.) Acquire the necessary information to optimize your gear.

The first one you have to figure out on your own, but the second one is where EJ comes in.
Without EJ I wouldn't have known when to ignore socket bonus to gain the optimal DPS from my geming and what stats have the most weight with my spec. EJ has a wealth of information and it's simply foolish to ignore it.

Maybe you don't agree with one thing or another, but you don't have to use everything in any given guide-- use it to fill in the blank spots you don't know or fully understand yet.

I figured out my optimal Holy paladin spec without the aid of EJ, but when I decided to go tanking it was a GREAT help and I still reference it when I'm trying out new tanking styles.

On my warlock I was able to get 7100 DPS on a PuG Patchwerk 25 with my current gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...eden&n=Jesicka
EJ is a great site to get numbers that you're not going to find easily, it's helped me a ton at least.

[IngoDent]

Elitist Jerks have helped me out, that's for sure, but not with anything astronomical, just the basis, but I'm starting to feel that EJ is only for the best players, who shouldn't need it. I haven't seen anyone raise questions to their theorycrafting tho (Probably many out there...). And I think that the Ensidia player's quotes that were here are correct, about the movement, EJ posters only working with papers, and not actual pre-nerf fights, etc etc.
I liked the reasoning for Tun's ban tho, probably the best thing I've seen come from EJ :

~Huntarloot.

EDIT: While this post may have come off as me being a Ensidia fanboy, and that Tun is my favourite "eIdol", I'm a Exodus fanboi, bringing shame to us Europeans ;/
But in all honesty, my opinion about EJ is non-biased, and based on my own thoughts about it.

[telemain]

Dont use me as an example. I posted like I did on EJ well aware that I was going to get banned. I dont care about EJ; I never have. The fact was that FBN was starting to be the biggest disservice to the Feral community. Why? Because FBN is wrong, and its a shitty simulator. It needed to be addressed and nobody else was doing it. I was right in all of my observations.

I don't think I'm allowed to quote from the Benefactors Bar but in there I even got defended by fellow Feral Druids from vodka and Juggernaut. So essentially, it comes down to scrubs blindly praising the theorycrafting tools and the better players knowing better. In FBN's case I said what I had to, in part because the people using the simulator were being stupid and in part because the program itself is flawed and wrong.

Nopher linked me some other simulator that was right on the money, using the exact rotation I advocated. I cant remember the name but it just proves that there are more reliable sources out there.

My point still stands: EJ sucks. Look at the FBN thread. Because its on EJ people think its gold, even if its a pile of shit. It's the same kind of logic people use when they blindly believe anything I say. Just because I play in a good guild doesn't mean I'm right. In this case, however, I am.

EJ sucks because on one of their many many many points they were wrong? I guess all that other accurate and helpful information is just worthless then?

This guy pretty much summarized why he got banned and why he deserved it. He even admitted he was expecting it. What I don't like is that a) he provides no INFORMATION to back up his claims (not bothering to look up the thread) and even if he did, of course it would be ignored if it was covered with this much anger and pointless insulting and b) hes just saying "screw EJ" but doesn't want to actually help the readers who aren't part of the group attacking him. It seems quite self centered.

If someone is wrong, its generally more helpful to say "you're wrong. Here is why" Than "HAHAHA UR WRONG STUPID. U GUYS R SO DUM. U DON'T NO NETHING IM SO MUCH BETER THAN U!" even if it is followed with "here's why"

[Gilian]

ok even so this quote by bigjenk
shows that tun apparently was right and even if he did sound stuck up the response to tun was no different.
and tbh i would rather believe tun than EJ and their simulators because he has the experience and all EJ has is the math.

Yes, EJ members have no experience. Lol. I like people posting about something they don't know a thing about or just posting retarted arguments.

[Gilian]

But he was correct! People do make mistakes, and if your a person who can't take criticism and reject a valid point, than there's something wrong.

You just keep going round in circles with each post saying Tun was a douche, a girl, a cry baby. This just proves, that you feel very insecure, when
another person proves you wrong, and just state abusive gargon to cover up your own failure.

Maybe he got banned for being a douche and not because he was right or wrong?
Because someone is right he can be a douche?

[Pineapple]

I'd say the following pretty much sums it up: theorycrafted dps != live dps.

It's like trying to read up on how to beat Tetris! What you'll learn is to fit the falling pieces in even rows, leaving no holes. All that sounds great on paper but in reality you can't foresee how the game will evolve, since there's no way of pre-determining the order of said pieces, and paper is what EJ deals with.

True, but arguing that it's useless is taking it a bit to far. (Not saying that you do, but there are people who would because their eIdol got the banhammer)

If you didn't read up on Tetris, you wouldn't know how to fit the pieces, and thus would probably handle the situation poorer.

[Frank7734]

True, but arguing that it's useless is taking it a bit to far. (Not saying that you do, but there are people who would because their eIdol got the banhammer)

If you didn't read up on Tetris, you wouldn't know how to fit the pieces, and thus would probably handle the situation poorer.

It's more than taking it a bit too far, it's a pretty big stretch.

How many of us played Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter without reading up on how you do the special moves?

I mean, being able to read Foward, Down, Down-Forward + P doesn't mean you can execute a Shoryuuken, but it sure as hell puts you closer to being able to do it.

Knowing what is required for the top theoretical DPS puts you closer to being able to do the most DPS possible.

[Deleted]

You might want to actually read my posts instead of assuming you know what I wrote. If you disagree with me on my points about FbN, then that's because youre stupid. If you dont like the way I made my point; too bad. It worked. People aren't using FbN nearly as much now as they were 2 months ago.

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t49702-f...tion_tool/p58/

My first post is at the bottom of that page. You might want to actually read what I posted before trying to teach me anything. I got banned for disagreeing with "imperical studies", which turned out to be wrong. The bullshit about me having a superior tone was only because I disagreed with FbN without making my own DPS model. The only reason my ban didn't get revoked is because of my blog on my guilds site. If I cared about getting unbanned, I might not have posted a blog about why I hate EJ so much.

My point was (and still is), dont trust the goddamn simulators and nothing else but them. They're made by people just like you and me. As we all know, people make mistakes. The entire point is to still use your own critical thinking, even if you're looking at a program thats supposed to do all the critical thinking for you.

[Melonberry]

Last I heard, EJ was theorycraft and not fact. Do people not know the difference? I wouldn't be surprized considering I've seen geared players pull <3k dps. (Btw, a holy priest can pull about 3k)

[Mikzor]

Tryed elitist jerks unholy builds, didnt work so well.

Tested http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfmMV...dg0ux0uIqo:brL and got 500ish more dps

[Deleted]

EJ sucks because on one of their many many many points they were wrong? I guess all that other accurate and helpful information is just worthless then?

This guy pretty much summarized why he got banned and why he deserved it. He even admitted he was expecting it. What I don't like is that a) he provides no INFORMATION to back up his claims (not bothering to look up the thread) and even if he did, of course it would be ignored if it was covered with this much anger and pointless insulting and b) hes just saying "screw EJ" but doesn't want to actually help the readers who aren't part of the group attacking him. It seems quite self centered.

If someone is wrong, its generally more helpful to say "you're wrong. Here is why" Than "HAHAHA UR WRONG STUPID. U GUYS R SO DUM. U DON'T NO NETHING IM SO MUCH BETER THAN U!" even if it is followed with "here's why"

Look.. I said the simulator was wrong because NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD was able to pull the DPS the model said you were supposed to. I said that in the thread. How is that not pointing out why the program is wrong? In most cases, you're several thousand dps behind where you're supposed to be according to the simulator, even having exactly the rotation it said you should use.

Before you say "well just say WHY the program is giving wrong info then", go check out the FbN source code. Find the run (main) method. That's why I wont tell you why the program is wrong. Nobody knows what the program does half the time. Its 3500 lines of total nonsense. The guy developing the program, Nightcrowler, is even MIA so nobody can fix it because nobody else understands his shitty coding. Do you get it now? Its outdated and nobody is around to update it.

[Frank7734]

If you disagree with me on my points about FbN, then that's because youre stupid. If you dont like the way I made my point; too bad.

Golly, how ever did you get banned? You clearly think you're too good to approach things with a respectful and humble tone because golly gee johnsons you're Tun from Ensidia and you're good at a video game and you got a World First! -- LIEK OMG!

You're not an authority on mathematics, you're a guy who plays a simple video game somewhat better than most. You still have to approach a community with respect and bring well organized evidence if you want to bring a positive contribution. Sadly Tun, productive machines don't run on e-peen and the out-lashings of a moody teenager. What a drag.

[whitcomovich]

did u just compare evoultion a new idea which requires as much belief as religion to medicine something thats been around for hundreds of thousands of years. dumbass

[arantes]

did u just compare evoultion a new idea which requires as much belief as religion to medicine something thats been around for hundreds of thousands of years. dumbass

I figured some idiot would say this at some point.

You sir, fail at reality. I hope others will join in and mock the above poster. And if you don't, just stop using your computers.

Evolution is the bedrock of modern biology, including modern medicine. It is arguably the most strongly supported scientific theory/model in existence today.

Essentially Tun you are using the methods of idiots like the one above. You stumbled upon a correct answer (well that's at least better than most and certainly better than idiots like the one above who I have used as an exaggerated analogy) but used logical fallacies to try to get it across. While there is much to be said about getting the answer right, you did nothing to help others verify that answer and debunk the previous one. They had to go out and do it themselves.

[Deleted]

Tun got banned becuse he couldn't argue like a sane person, he went, in my opinion, batshit crazy with the argument and decided that people should belive in his word simply becuse he was in a top-end guild. While it's true that 99% of the time, those players perform at the maximum level, their word is not truth, for the very same reason Elitist Jerks sometimes have misstakes on their forum.

Quit bitching at EJ, they do what they set out to do: Provide kickass theorycrafting. Now it's up to the players who read it to decide if they're smart enough to use the knowledge obtained by reading it. Sadly, most aren't, so they think the site is wrong and become so much dumber becuse of it.

Just figure this: You didn't want Tun to get banned becuse he was right (Which was proven apperently weeks later, without involvement from Tun), yet you want Elitist jerks to be right without demanding proof when making a claim? I hope you see the fatal flaw in this carebear plan of yours, sane arguments backed up with proof are welcome on an intelligent site, while spouting your unwanted opinion on a hunch is not.

Elitist jerks, a site for theorycrafting, not biased discussion. Now write that on a rock and bash yourself on the head with it and hope that those 9 words are all that you remeber, becuse fuck me you could not get any dumber.

note: 'You' is everyone that brought up stupid arguments as to why Elitist Jerks are bad and why tun is awsome, so about 3-4 people.

[Deleted]

Let me explain my situation to you: I get hundreds of whispers every day from people asking for advise about DPS, gearing, rotations and whatnot. About half of these mentioned FbN and argued against my advice because of what they read in the FbN thread. There's a reason I haven't posted on EJ before that FbN thread. I knew their rules were to strict for me too follow. I got fed up with people arguing against me based on FbN's wrong conclusions, so I posted. Shame I got banned before I was finished arguing my case. I frankly dont give a flying fuck what people think about my attitude; I never asked to be idolized or asked for help. I dont care what you think about abilities to argue in a civil way either. Fact is, I know I'm right, and everyone else with insight agree with me and have known that FbN is shit for a long time. There's a reason why there's 0 good feral druids posting in that FbN thread.

And stop giving me that crap about how I should behave. I dont owe you anything. Im just another idiot on the internet, and Im very much allowed to think and act like I see fit. Because Im a public figure people expect me to act civil and be nice and humble all the time. Fuck that. Find another player to idolize for all I care; I would welcome the peace and quiet.

Oh, and I might not have helped solve the FbN problems because I just want the simulator to die and never get resurrected. If it was a thread about a simulator that was accurate, I would probably have taken a different approach. Or maybe I never would have felt it needed to post in the first place.