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  1. #41

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    This is the smartest thing I've seen Blizz do in a long time.

  2. #42

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Sorrow
    im fully agree with you , since 2 spells are way too much for baseline, oh wait droods and shamans haev moar.
    You're wrong in so many ways it's funny.

    You have by any sensible measure 3 heals, FoL, HL & SS (absorbs are better than heals, so it would be stupid to ignore it). I'm not even going to count LoH.

    (non-resto) Shaman also has 3 heals: LHW, HW & CH.

    So Shaman has more?

    Even if they did have more, since when did number of heals directly relate to power of healing? If it did holydins would be entirely useless and shadow priests would be Healing Gods, but that's obviously not the case.

    I strongly suggest you go play an enhance shammy if you think that they have better self-healing potential in PvP than Ret, you'll be somewhat disappointed. I have both, and the difference is profoundly to Rets advantage.

  3. #43
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    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Its sad as i really wanted Holy specs to have an unlimited target HoT.

  4. #44

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    Its sad as i really wanted Holy specs to have an unlimited target HoT.
    It would have been nice to have but totally on the OP side of things.

    It would have also ensured that Paladins never took off 4pt9.

  5. #45
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    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Lebeau
    It would have been nice to have but totally on the OP side of things.

    It would have also ensured that Paladins never took off 4pt9.
    How would it be OP? It is not any diffferent from Druids that can HoT an "unlimited" number of targets.

  6. #46

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Duke
    Currently rets are embodying the other 2 aspects of their class, a tank and a healer too well. Feral druids can't heal for shit, and can't tank in cat, or dps in bear decently. Shammies can't tank at all, and their healing is mediocre as ele, and terrible as enhancement.

    Rets have crazy amounts of tanking via plate and their sacred shield which is basically always up. They then have the ability to heal themselves constantly with art of war, and LoH when near death. THEN they can bubble and heal to full.

    These changes make the ret either choose bubble or LoH, so they can only reset the fight once inside two minutes. They also take a hit to their healing, which is too powerful for a spec that is supposed to be about pure damage.

    I lol'd so hard at this..... Have u never seen a druid run away around a pillar and heal back to fll health shapeshift and continue raping u with 3k crits in bear form : /

  7. #47

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    Its sad as i really wanted Holy specs to have an unlimited target HoT.
    I wanted this as well, there went my hopes of building haste and spell power... qq

  8. #48

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Sorrow
    im really dissapointed with your statement as acroding to it, we should consider warlock's demonic sacrfice a healing spell, amigiettinitrite?
    No demonic sacrifice isn't a healing spell because they removed it, oh months ago. Do you mean soul link? Or perhaps the sacrifice ability on the voidwalker? Sacrifice certainly is effectively a heal, but it comes with a considerable cost, Are you really comparing it to SS? If you are then that's funnier still. Thank you for making my point though that simply counting the number of healing effects a class has is irrelevant.

    nao, you want to convince us HW heals lesser than a ret FoL?
    Obviously I don't or I would have said that wouldn't I? However I would say that if an enhance shaman tried to use HW substantially he'll oom himself, even running water shield. And a Ret's FoL does heal more (and more efficiently) than an enhance's LHW.

    you can say that ret is able to throw insta FoL all over and over, but i need to crit with my abilities 1st in order to make FoL instant and hell, you know, its hard to crit 900+ resil target
    now please tell us , enchancement shaman player, how do you make your casts instant and
    Even against resi targets Ret gets more AoW procs than it can use offensively, whereas every MW proc could be used offensively. The ppm of MW is about 25 (assuming you're always in melee range), that translates to 5 insta cast heals every minute assuming you're willing to forgo a huge chunk of offense.

    Given AoW can proc from CS, white hit & DS - assuming you're always in melee range you'll have with 17% crit about 6.5 AoW procs a minute.

    Doesn't look like ret is miles behind, especially when we figure in the procs from SS. Which will result in both absorbs and most of those FoLs critting.
    And the damage that ret loses from exorcism is MUCH lower than the damage that the enhance loses from LB.

    Enhance gets some free self heal from wolves, but that about balances the free self heal ret gets from DS.

    If you genuinely think enhance is so much stronger than Ret I recommend you play it.

  9. #49
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    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Joarrak
    They don't like that you basically have to kill a pally 3 times, since when they get low they can LOH and they can bubble and heal, so having them have other healing capabilities is just OP.
    The trouble from the Paladins pov is that other classes - as they ARE - can actually kill a Paladin three times in a row. That speaks volumes about Paladins so-called survivability in a PvP context.

    I personally don't have any qualms about Blizzard redesigning LoH. In many respects, I agree with the argument they've presented. My problem is that, given their arguments and purported worried about PVP, and their statements that the class is otherwise relatively balanced, the use of Forbearance is a weak solution that actually does nothing to fix thei issues they told us about while again impacting PvE in a negative fashion. This is nothing new. The Exorcism change also changed little and previous changes increased burst when it was supposed to be descreased, or had other side effects - most of which were spotted by the Paladin communty and not the designers. For some strange reason, they keep fixing Paladins in ways Paladins don't want because they can see the problems with the fix. And then Blizzrad acts surprised when those problesm crop up.

    If LoH was so OP as they describe, then it needs to be redesigned to be less powerful. Usually, that means a lesser effect on a shorter CD, perhaps buffed via Holy talents.

    But a cheap gimmicky fix that has nothing to recommend it except for the ease of implementation solves nothing.

    # They already took away self-targeted LOH to help with that. I mean look at dks, rets and dks were the strongest in pvp for a whilep.
    Yes. And we got hotfixed in hours.

    EJL

  10. #50

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret
    Quite clearly these changes are all ment purely to destroy Ret survivability in all forms of PvP and in lots of PvE too. Tons of heavy nerfs and nothing in return. Not even an increase in base HP closer to that of other plate users. FU big time devs, hopefully the next big nerf target will be your salary.

    Thats cause we can heal. Makes sense but ssshh just cause we have lower health than others they will still QQ cause we can heal.

  11. #51

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    The problem everyone that doesnt play a pally at high gear/skill levels sees is that we have alot of skills that can completely negate other classes offensive abilities. Add this in with an instant 100% heal and a complete immunity in a situation where everyone on the opposite team isnt working to shut down the pally that can stop their damage/cc the pally looks amazing.

    But placed in a situation where the pally is locked down for 20-30 secs, bubbles, then is locked down until dead the class feels like crap.

    We have quite a few defensive cooldowns that negate other classes abilities but we are easily countered by an offensive dispeller and/or a class with lots of slows,roots, or stuns. If we have to give up LoH to be considered non-op so be it, i rarely use it in pvp because the long cooldown and the fact that most times it doesnt get you anywhere. If they changed it to a smaller heal or shield with a 2 min cooldown that would be awesome.

  12. #52

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Sorrow
    im fully agree with you , since 2 spells are way too much for baseline, oh wait droods and shamans haev moar.
    What he’s saying is that rets and prot pallys untalented heals are too strong and that the holy tree does very little to boost heals deep in the tree. What you should expect is a 40% or more nerf in base heals and a big chunk of +heal is deep holy. Holy pallies stay the same rets / prots loose Hp/M efficiency. Shaman heals blow when 0 points invested in resto, shadow priest heals suck with all points in damage abilities, ferral / boomkins same story. Sure they may have a larger variety of healing spells as base line skills but they are so laughably terrible when not speced / glyphed they arn't worth using 99% of the time.

    Rets critting 11-12k FoL AoW heals is just too much from a damage class. It's just like the death strike nerfs or how warlock death coil returns so little HP now damage classes that have self heals should use them as support / situationally they shouldn't be able to sustain themselves through self heals that’s what healers are for.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireBorne
    mongoloid?! wtf is that, you sound like a festeezio(see i can make up words too)

  13. #53

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Will infusion of light still proc an instant cast FoL or will it only place a FoL hot on the target?

    The FoL hot really doesnt do that much, I would prefer the instant cast FoL myself.


  14. #54

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meroveus
    Will infusion of light still proc an instant cast FoL or will it only place a FoL hot on the target?

    The FoL hot really doesnt do that much, I would prefer the instant cast FoL myself.


    The old functionality is still there. They just made it so that your Flashes wont hot a sacred shieled player unless you are specced 2/2 Infusion of Light.

    We as Holy Paladins will see zero change to our gameplay.

  15. #55

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    These changes mess with PvE not just PvP.

    Ench Shamans can heal just was well, if not better, than Ret paladins can. Feral druids can also heal well with 70% of thier Agility being added to healing totals. We can't "tank" anything in PvE content as Ret without switching gear, which you can't do on the fly.
    Just thought i would throw this out there. I tanked H HoL as ret in full ret gear. 4 manned. Druid healer. No wipes. Every boss. A few days ago. K thx

  16. #56
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    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilhealz
    Just thought i would throw this out there. I tanked H HoL as ret in full ret gear. 4 manned. Druid healer. No wipes. Every boss. A few days ago. K thx
    Warriors can do the same.
    Druids can do the same.
    DKs can do the same.

    Just thought i would throw this out there.

  17. #57

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilhealz
    Just thought i would throw this out there. I tanked H HoL as ret in full ret gear. 4 manned. Druid healer. No wipes. Every boss. A few days ago. K thx
    The only thing that proves is heroics are garbage, but we all knew that a year ago. lol

  18. #58

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    Warriors can do the same.
    Druids can do the same.
    DKs can do the same.

    Just thought i would throw this out there.
    Don't forget Shamans, hunters' pets, and demos' pets. I doubt a FoL hot would make or break a ret pally tanking a heroic though.
    Nom Nom Nom [NNF] (2 points) - When you Ferocious Bite a target at or below 25% health, you have a 50/100% chance to instantly refresh the duration of your Rip on the target.

  19. #59

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Picori
    Sacred Shield: The damage absorption effect from this ability now triggers only once every 30 seconds.

    if you look at the patch notes.... this is crossed out....

    so ret paladins get it back again? at least blizz have some decency bemusing means of diversion/gratification left in them >_>
    I'm not saying Ret' didn't need this de-buff.

    Actually--personal theory--it's just a well-planned conundrum; the present change was their intention from the get', and may have been exclusively planned to justify finally nerfing LoH, buff Holy and attempt deflecting as much fuss as possible. Look at it this way:

    Last patch, Blizzard-dev' considers a means to accomplishing the ^former^ in its entirety, and decide providing the intended 'that tree' buff as a 'general class--but better for this tree' buff only temporarily will provide leeway for exonerating the 'general class' nerf they've clearly wanted to implement since arena was introduced, thanks to the collective pissing and moaning of the 'non-class'es, which they use to their advantage. Next patch comes along, Blizzard-dev' tells you they're going to nerf 'x' and 'y' because the added 'z' implementation' introduced with the previous patch is decided to be 'far too effective', especially with all the pointless CD reducing they intend (for [that] class). People piss and moan more, as expected. They (Blizzard-d') then snicker and roll their collective eyes callously, explaining they're not going to nerf 'y' (as that would've been stupid, anyway), but are, instead, moving last patch's 'z' implementation' over to a 'that tree-exclusive buff' category...

    I'm also really tired and realise much of that will only seem nonsensical. Summarily, they buffed SS last patch so they could--rather than nerf--unbuff Prot' and Ret' the following patch, nerf LoH (to make using it more decisive, and in future encounters, [really] stupid), [pretend] to justify [that] with some reduced CDs whilst pretending they intend to nerf SS entirely (but annul that nerf in favor of the following--as planned, of course) and finally laugh as they are applauded for debuffing/rebuffing Holy with last season's schtick (in the form they're doing so, it's a huge healing buff--better later than never, I s'pose).

    And I think I mentioned they get to 'nerf' Ret' and Prot' at the same time; it's one of their pastimes.

    But it's just some ridiculous conspiracy crap; perhaps I'm giving them too much credit.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  20. #60

    Re: About the FoL HoT change

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    You have by any sensible measure 3 heals, FoL, HL & SS (absorbs are better than heals, so it would be stupid to ignore it). I'm not even going to count LoH.
    So a spell that only proc's a damage-absorbing effect every six seconds is officially cited as being considered a heal? You do realise you're actually attempting to state 'sensibly':

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    You have by any sensible measure 3 heals: FoL, HL & SS (absorbs are heals). I'm not even going to count LoH.
    ...

    I think the community missed your memo regarding where to place their logic...



    And then going on to state you're [actually] discounting LoH as a legitimate heal just sends me into obligatory, hysterical cacchination.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

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