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  1. #1
    Field Marshal
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    Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Sorry if I'm ranting or anything just wanted my voice heard

    but doesn't the new changes to Lay on hands mess up Holy to Prot Paladins, i mean if i use my oh-shit-button "LoH" on a pala tank id basically forcefully remove one of his own CDs, ofc I'm only looking at this from a raiding PoV, i don't play ret or prot much on my paladin but so wouldn't know how they will react to this change, But i would say put it in deep holy to not cause forbearance like what they did with sacred shield.

    sorry for misspelling a few words

  2. #2

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    It's ok.

  3. #3

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Yeaaa your gonna be ok

  4. #4

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    That "Oh shit button" made killing a pally impossible.

  5. #5

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Once again, Blizzard uses the paladin band-aid Forbearance to completely fuck shit up. The OP is 100% right, this is going to screw with raiding prot paladins in a big way. Let me give you an example:

    Prot paladin uses their version of Shield wall - Divine Protection - to live through boss large hit #1. Holy Paladin uses his only ohshit button(compare it to NS in a raiding environment - they even buffed it to reduce physical damage taken when specced holy) only to find out that forbearance keeps him from using it on the tank. Paladin tank dies.

    I get that Blizzard doesn't want paladins dominating rated bgs with their 20 minute instafullhealth button... but they're doing it the wrong way yet again. Thanks, morons.

  6. #6

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    No one likes paladins or DKs, I am sorry.

    But, in all seriousness, LOH is overpowered for PVE.

    Imho, it did need the nerf bat.

  7. #7
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gindry
    No one likes paladins or DKs, I am sorry.

    But, in all seriousness, LOH is overpowered for PVE.

    Imho, it did need the nerf bat.
    From a tanking cooldown, it can be seen as underpowered.

  8. #8

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson
    Once again, Blizzard uses the paladin band-aid Forbearance to completely fuck shit up. The OP is 100% right, this is going to screw with raiding prot paladins in a big way. Let me give you an example:

    Prot paladin uses their version of Shield wall - Divine Protection - to live through boss large hit #1. Holy Paladin uses his only ohshit button(compare it to NS in a raiding environment - they even buffed it to reduce physical damage taken when specced holy) only to find out that forbearance keeps him from using it on the tank. Paladin tank dies.

    I get that Blizzard doesn't want paladins dominating rated bgs with their 20 minute instafullhealth button... but they're doing it the wrong way yet again. Thanks, morons.
    Instead of raging, go to their forum and suggest a solution.

    This can easily be fixed by changed the mechanic to "If Forbearance is active on you, you aren't allowed to use LoH on yourself. But you may still use it on someone else who has Forbearance active."

    Now go, and fly, do something useful with your time instead of

  9. #9

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    From a tanking cooldown, it can be seen as underpowered.
    40-50k self heal as a tank is a bit much when paired with ardent defender.

    Though forbearance when using tier set bonus is 1 minutes 30 seconds so its not as bad.
    Because some players aren't looking for anything logical, like loot. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some players just want to watch the group fail.

  10. #10

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moshy
    40-50k self heal as a tank is a bit much when paired with ardent defender.

    Though forbearance when using tier set bonus is 1 minutes 30 seconds so its not as bad.
    The time I used it on plasma blast (before we had AD), I tried to time it so I used it when I had low HP, I still died.

    The time I used it just before Sartharion 3D breathed me, he still oneshotted me.

    It's usefulness as a PvE cooldown is limited at best, I am hoping that this change isn't final and that we get a more elegent solution that is both more useful in PvE and less overpowered in PvP.

    In many ways LoH is an outdated mechanic, abilities like Shield Wall and Last Stand used to be "Oh Shit" buttons you might use a couple of times a raid if your in trouble but think the situation can be salvaged (many times have we made a guild first kill thanks to a shield wall in the dying moments). Nowadays they are essential parts of certain boss encounters (Sarth 3d breaths being the first example in wrath), LoH is unsuited to this kind of use, being too long a cooldown and not really effective for countering predictable damage spikes. WoW has moved on and LoH either needs to move with it or be removed completely.

  11. #11

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson
    Once again, Blizzard uses the paladin band-aid Forbearance to completely fuck shit up. The OP is 100% right, this is going to screw with raiding prot paladins in a big way. Let me give you an example:

    Prot paladin uses their version of Shield wall - Divine Protection - to live through boss large hit #1. Holy Paladin uses his only ohshit button(compare it to NS in a raiding environment - they even buffed it to reduce physical damage taken when specced holy) only to find out that forbearance keeps him from using it on the tank. Paladin tank dies.
    Once again a player QQs without really thinking it through. Because you can self-cast again, what will happen with good players is the prot pally will LoH himself if it's off cooldown, or otherwise use bubblewall.

    The holy pally will then have LoH ready to go to save the warrior offtank, who actually NEEDS an oh-shit button to heal because he doesn't have Holy Cheat Death.
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  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire kakefarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gindry
    No one likes paladins or DKs, I am sorry.

    But, in all seriousness, LOH is overpowered for PVE.

    Imho, it did need the nerf bat.
    Would u mind filling this one out a bit and tell us what is OP about LoH in PvE?
    Because i really don't see any OP-ness in it...
    Blizz has now officially fucked up LoH.
    Summergale 85 Paladin - Holy/Prot dual specced.
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  13. #13
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moshy
    40-50k self heal as a tank is a bit much when paired with ardent defender.

    Though forbearance when using tier set bonus is 1 minutes 30 seconds so its not as bad.
    Yes, but it is using it that is the problem. Use it too early and you waste it, use it too late and you are dead.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    totally waiting for this to F up a guilds run. A healer sees a prot pally going down, panics and hits the pally with a LOH, forbearance occurs. Shortly after the prot finds himself in a situaiton where he needs to blow Divine Protection and is unable to do so. Guild wipes GG.



    "Stop," said a loud booming voice.* And Rhonin turned around to see it was Bolvar Fordragon, but he was all burned up and shit.* He took the helm from Tirion.* "I can take no comfort anymore, in the world of the living, for Arthas has burned my genitals off.* I shall bear the burden.* I shall be the jailer of the damned." - Legendary Knaak Thread

  15. #15

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    The only thing overpowered about Lay on Hands is glyphing it for 8k Mana as Holy.

    LoH as holy is the only way to give the tank the damage reduction buff all the other healers just "Get" and it seems very silly to me that it is now getting pushed even MORESO off being used for other people and saving it for the paladin themselve or other heals for the mana return.


    Either way, this is still PTR and I fully expect to see more changes involved with it. Don't go crazy, just understand they change it to see how it works and peoples reactions and opinions on how it works.

  16. #16

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    The biggest problem with this is as people have noted that it turns the tank's oh-shit button into somebody else's oh-fuck button, in that after they use it you will be. Personally I'll be really sad to see LoH screwed with - it's an iconic ability of pallies - but seems like some change is coming.

    They have a few obvious options that spring to mind
    • Make only self-cast LoH cause forbearance
    • Make prot able to self-target with LoH via some deep talent, but nobody else and not have LoH cause forbearance
    • Make holy able to cast LoH without causing forbearance, but nobody else
    • Make LoH only cause forbearance in BGs
    • Radically change LoH by either decreasing the amount healed, making it a HoT, etc

    Which they should pick I suppose depends on exactly who they're trying to nerf or what context they consider LoH to be OP. The current PTR solution is just ugly though, truly profoundly ugly.

    I've never really seen LoH as OP in PvE, in fact I find very long CD abilities like that interesting because people can be so conservative about using them and it takes a good player to really know when to pop it and when to hold back.

  17. #17

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    This part confuses me a little:

    "Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Divine Protection have been modified to include Lay on Hands."

    So, if I'm reading that right, does that mean that every time I use Hand of Protection, it will cast Lay on Hands as well, if it's on cooldown? Example: Did an onyxia a couple days ago. Had a mage that did excellent DPS but didn't understand the concept of "stand in the DK tank's Death and Decay when the whelps come out". Whelps come out, head straight for him, so I HoP'd him. Problem solved. He hadn't actually taken any damage yet, though, so he certainly didn't need my LoH.

  18. #18

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Building on enraged regeneration angle that I mentioned in the other thread, perhaps it could function much like enraged regen (maybe a bit worse in terms of healing since you can cast it on others) and make the Holy talents give it some secondary effect such as damage reduction. This would give holy pallys a "tanking cooldown" in a similar vein to holy priest's Guardian Spirit, which would be nice for raid composition because it would reduce the occasional overreliance on one class (when we were first trying Mimiron we had to use 3 or 4 Holy Priests for the GS, which meant one or two shadow priests had to respec).

  19. #19
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brhino
    This part confuses me a little:

    "Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Divine Protection have been modified to include Lay on Hands."

    So, if I'm reading that right, does that mean that every time I use Hand of Protection, it will cast Lay on Hands as well, if it's on cooldown? Example: Did an onyxia a couple days ago. Had a mage that did excellent DPS but didn't understand the concept of "stand in the DK tank's Death and Decay when the whelps come out". Whelps come out, head straight for him, so I HoP'd him. Problem solved. He hadn't actually taken any damage yet, though, so he certainly didn't need my LoH.
    no, what it means is that if you use Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Divine Protection you will be unable to use LoH, and vice-versa. If you use LoH you wont be able to use Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Divine Protection until forbearance is off.. meaning you'd better hope someone else doesn't hit you with a LoH cuz you will lose the ability to use your own cds on yourself.



    "Stop," said a loud booming voice.* And Rhonin turned around to see it was Bolvar Fordragon, but he was all burned up and shit.* He took the helm from Tirion.* "I can take no comfort anymore, in the world of the living, for Arthas has burned my genitals off.* I shall bear the burden.* I shall be the jailer of the damned." - Legendary Knaak Thread

  20. #20

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    I understand that as the result of LoH having forbearance now, but I don't think that's what the statement in the prot section means. It says those three prot spells have been "modified".

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