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  1. #41

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    There's a Holy pally and a Prot pally.
    The Holy one is healing the Prot one.
    The Holy one sees a time when LoH'ing the Prot one would be beneficial.
    The Holy pally likely already has Beacon on the tank.
    The Holy pally LoH's himself.

    Not saying the forbearance thing isn't a nerf. Just saying it's not a big one.

  2. #42

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    easy fix make LOH give forbearance to the caster and not the target.
    No QQ from anyone.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Cellox

  3. #43

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    If your entire raid is hinged on Lay on Hands, you need to rethink raiding and possibly take up knitting or basket weaving.

    God forbid they force you to use discretion when deciding which life-saving ability you want to use.

    Tanks shouldn't be able to insta-heal themselves to full life.

    End of story.
    "Let's get one thing straight. This is not a cheerocracy. I am the cheertator here. I make the cheercisions, and I will deal with the cheeronsequences. Now, if there are no more cheeruptions, we can cheertinue. Thank you."

  4. #44
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeina
    If your entire raid is hinged on Lay on Hands, you need to rethink raiding and possibly take up knitting or basket weaving.

    God forbid they force you to use discretion when deciding which life-saving ability you want to use.

    Tanks shouldn't be able to insta-heal themselves to full life.

    End of story.

    Thats the thing: Since raids ARENT hinged on LoH, why nerf its use?

  5. #45

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Sorrow
    besides the fact that LoH-caster might want to pop buble/hop/dp to cover himself aswell.
    yay! i healed tank! now i die cuz i cant use buble(
    Its better for a dps to go down rather then the tanks. not to mention it does not gimp the tanks(if a paladin) shield wall.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Cellox

  6. #46

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Forbearance in general is a retarded mechanic, the fact that I can NOT use my threat-boosting ability without disabling my ONLY active tanking cooldown for half a minute is simply stupid; adding LoH on top of the forbearance list is just idiotic.

    If LoH is seen as such an overpowered mechanic whilst used by Ret Paladins / Prot Paladins, make it a Holy talent - I mean, the whole Holy tree has like 3 talents worth picking amidst the 60+ points of rubble so why the hell not.

  7. #47

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeina
    If your entire raid is hinged on Lay on Hands, you need to rethink raiding and possibly take up knitting or basket weaving.

    God forbid they force you to use discretion when deciding which life-saving ability you want to use.

    Tanks shouldn't be able to insta-heal themselves to full life.

    End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhonen
    Argue against it in a pve environment? You're reaching. You can slowly diaf for all I care if you want to make this argument.

    And as Ronark said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark

    Thats the thing: Since raids ARENT hinged on LoH, why nerf its use?
    Why? Because as Blizz's God-forsaken, bastard e-sport weasels it's way into other aspects of the game (BGs and dailies), we're going to suffer more and more nerfs like this that also affect the way we pve.
    I quit the game, and this happens:
    "You can now mount while under the skeleton effect of the Noggenfogger Elixir!"
    Are you effing kidding me?!?!
    ******
    Remember 3.0.......

  8. #48

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by iglocska
    So if a random ret pally throws a LoH my way, I can't use bubble wall for 2 mins while tanking?

    ty blizz.
    Exactly. This is the problem. Prot pallies plan when to use DP in order to avoid spike damage (or DS to drop a debuff such as an OT dropping poison on Heroic beasts) so now holy pallies can't ever use it on prot pallies. Every time they do they'll get bitched at and potentially wipe the raid on hard modes. I never used it as prot because its on the GCD so if I'm so low on health that I want to use it I'm always either healed by a healer or already dead by the time the gcd comes up. This will present a problem for holy now as I'll still use LoH for the oh shit/mana regen but I'll have to be careful never to use it on a prot pally.

    This is 100% a pvp related nerf and its not even useable in arenas. This is a BG nerf. Is it better to screw up pve than to let a ret pally self heal once every 12 minutes in BGS?

    Solution: Make anything uncastable in arenas uncastable in BGs and during duels. This is the true fix to the problem and should already be in place.

    Alternate bandaid solution: Only causes forbearance when cast on self.

    Drunk toddlers in a dryer

  9. #49

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Sorrow
    you should compare not LoH with Ad,
    but compare LoH+ AD to warrior combo Last Stand + Frenzyregen
    they are , in fact, even.

    not to mention the fact, that i can give my LoH to you, and any other raidmember.
    How can you compare 30% hp over 10 sec with an insta full heal? Sure, there's a lower CD on the Regen, but what you want is a big ass heal, not some silly regen tbh.

    -Kumar
    http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/10/general-druid-icewell-radiance-bears.html

    stop the QQ *sigh*

  10. #50

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by agir215
    LoH may be OP in some situations (I've soloed things I really shouldn't have by rotating cooldowns and using LoH in the middle of that rotation)
    LoH is nowhere NEAR as OP as blood DK and their cooldowns. Just pop army of the dead and your ghoul, mark of blood, hysteria and dancing rune weapon and POOF, you can solo almost anything. And yes, unlike paladin cooldowns, all those DK cooldowns can be used at the same time!

    I'm not really whining about DKs though, I am irritated by the fact that all paladin cooldowns cause forbearance whereas there is no such thing at all for the other classes. It is really unfair.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  11. #51
    Fluffy Kitten Millennía's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    If Blizz really insist on changing it so LoH can't be used more than once every 2 minutes then why not have it as a seperate debuff so you can't be LoH'd more than once every X amount of minutes but you are still free to use tanking cooldowns such as DP when needed. Many classes can pop more than one cd at a time such as Icebound fortitude and Vampiric blood for DKs but Paladins have always been restricted to one.
    On rare occasions, the tank using LoH can decide the fight between wiping or downing the boss.

    So what i propose is that put LoH as a seperate debuff so that the target cant be affected by it more than once every X amount of mins, that way the tank is still free to use DP / HoP/ DS when needed.

  12. #52

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar
    How can you compare 30% hp over 10 sec with an insta full heal? Sure, there's a lower CD on the Regen, but what you want is a big ass heal, not some silly regen tbh.
    In PvE, for a tanking CD, the Regen is arguably superior because it is more consistent. The problem with LoH is that the effect is so determined by timing. Blizz puts 'TANK CD NOW' moments into encounters, and they come in various kinds.

    • Big streams like Mimi's Plasma blast
    • HUGE hits like big bang
    • Big (but survivable) hits like fusion punch (assuming it's dispelled)

    LoH is only any real us for the last of those 3, whereas a regen is useful for the first & last. Considering the last is the easiest to handle, this makes LoH rather a weak CD. I think a lot of prot-pallies would have barely missed the absence if the self-heal had been removed, the loss would have been more of an emotional thing to see such an iconic ability go.

    The current change is just messed up though. Healers shouldn't get their 'oh-shit' button replaced with an 'oh crap ' button


  13. #53

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    i find it very odd, that they are so extremly concerned about paladins using lay on hands in bgs, yet things like elemental shamans instant-killing 5 people in eye of storm stays in the game. This is really hypocritical.

    But for the sake of argument, if they care so much about bgs, either add a talent to the prot tree that removes forbearance from lay on hands or add a talent that removes forbearance from divine protection.

  14. #54

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gindry
    No one likes paladins or DKs, I am sorry.

    But, in all seriousness, LOH is overpowered for PVE.

    Imho, it did need the nerf bat.
    They didn't ''nerf'' so much as removed it... Fact is, For ret/healer paladin buble > LoH on themselves in raids, and for Prot, shield wall > LoH BIG TIME ... so LoH is now a tool that exist ONLY to heal non-paladin ??? That's fucked up ...

    I am talking about PvE here. Yes it did need a nerf... but forbearance ??? That's the dumbest idea EVER.

    How about reducing to 50% hp ? Anything that would not make it useless.

  15. #55
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Posted this in another topic aswell.

    Oke, so...

    Raids without a Holy Paladin healing and a Protection Paladin tanking, don't have any Lay on Hands at all. Do they fail? No. Is Lay on Hands needed? No.
    Aren't Paladins the class that have a talent that allows them to die every 2 minutes without actually dying? Yes. Do other tanks have a similair talent? No.
    Aren't Paladins the class that can use a certain ability to remove all debuffs they have (Thinking of the Northrend Beasts)? Yes. Do other tanks have a similar ability? No.

    Yet, I dare say that all other tanking classes are just as effective at tanking as Paladins without all those overpowered abilities and talents.

    Learn to play without overpowered abilities and talents.
    Statix will suffice.

  16. #56

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moshy
    40-50k self heal as a tank is a bit much when paired with ardent defender.

    Though forbearance when using tier set bonus is 1 minutes 30 seconds so its not as bad.
    Why do you argue with Ronark ? He IS right... at least for this.

    50k healing overpowered for a tank ? in RAID ? Have you EVER raided ?

    Big news for you, bosses hit for 20k+ in raids... So yeah that big whooptidou 50k healing let you live 4 second... (average swing 2 second if the boss does no special...)

    Fact is, making it cause forbearance render it totally useless in pve. Paladins had shield wall (never remember the name...) + LoH, that's IT. Not saying they needed more, but removing 1 of their tools... kinda sucks. So basicly you're down to 1 oh shit button.

  17. #57

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    IMHO, Lay on Hands was nerfed due to 1v1 situations.
    Not that it should be nerfed cause of that, but they do occur, and for some people, they do matter.
    LoH is not THAT useful against hard-hitting bosses anyway...
    Most classes spend their entire /played time wondering if they made a difference.
    Paladins don't have that problem.

  18. #58

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix
    Raids without a Holy Paladin healing and a Protection Paladin tanking, don't have any Lay on Hands at all.
    Yes they do - from the Ret pallies.

    Do they fail? No. Is Lay on Hands needed? No.
    True but nobody here is really saying that it's needed.

    Aren't Paladins the class that have a talent that allows them to die every 2 minutes without actually dying? Yes. Do other tanks have a similair talent? No.
    Other tanks have a second CD, it may differ from the implementation, it may be strictly less good, but it's not insanely less good.

    Aren't Paladins the class that can use a certain ability to remove all debuffs they have (Thinking of the Northrend Beasts)? Yes. Do other tanks have a similar ability? No.
    You have to be careful here, very careful indeed - because really - how many top guilds raid with no pallies at all? Well that would be none. If all pally unique abilities were prot only, or self only then there would be an issue, but they're not - and any sensibly configured raid will have one or two pallies. Is it possible to do beasts with no pallies? I'm sure it is - but it's needlessly hard.

    So in fact the non-pally tanks have an advantage with the debuff thing because they can receive a HoP without the debuff that it brings affecting their ability to use their CDs.

    The issue here isn't LoH so much as forbearance, as people have noted the removal of the self-targetted LoH was less annoying to prot than this.

    Learn to play without overpowered abilities and talents.
    LoH isn't OP, you yourself noted it at the start of your post. It's OP in PvP, but in PvE it's meh. The problem here is that prot-pallies will be living without LoH but non-pally tanks won't be - and worst of all non-tank pallies will screw up, LoH the tank and wipe the raid.

    The result of this change will be LoH will be something that can only safely be casted on non-pallies, and that's just silly. There has to be a better fix than that.

  19. #59

    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix
    Posted this in another topic aswell.

    Oke, so...

    Raids without a Holy Paladin healing and a Protection Paladin tanking, don't have any Lay on Hands at all. Do they fail? No. Is Lay on Hands needed? No.
    Aren't Paladins the class that have a talent that allows them to die every 2 minutes without actually dying? Yes. Do other tanks have a similair talent? No.
    Aren't Paladins the class that can use a certain ability to remove all debuffs they have (Thinking of the Northrend Beasts)? Yes. Do other tanks have a similar ability? No.

    Yet, I dare say that all other tanking classes are just as effective at tanking as Paladins without all those overpowered abilities and talents.

    Learn to play without overpowered abilities and talents.
    LoH is not op in pve...
    It IS op in pvp.

    They coud've made it less powerful without removing it entirely, which they do by causing forbearance... You will NOT use LoH instead of bubble... A tank will NOT use LoH instead of shield wall.

    No saying it doesn't need fine tuning, but forbearance effectively removes it, not nerf it.

    And seriously I've never been to a raid without 1 paladin ... so no LoH in raids ??? On which twisted server do you play ?!? You don't bring Kings / might / wisdom buffs in your raids ? Damn you like gimping yourself hardcore...

    Anyway, all this to say, that this is not a nerf, it's a removal of a skill that's iconical of paladins... I think it kinda sucks. They could nerf it otherwise.

  20. #60
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

    The change they need to implement is a forbearance change. It will apply a forbearance change if cast on yourself, but not on another person. This would allow you to still use it in PVE, and when someone uses it on a prot pally it wouldn't screw him out of his own CD's. If the prot pally chooses to use it on himself, then by all means, apply forbearance. It is a "defensive cd". This will solve the PVP issue as well. People will not be able to LoH themselves and then BOP.

    You would be able to cast LoH on other people, so from a healing standpoint, you can still heal your tanks with it and not cause issues.



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