Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

[Ronark]

How dumber can you get ?

Seriously just go back to school...

This made me laugh. Grammer for the win!

Does not work.

2 paladins could still trade their LoH and both use bubble in rated bg's ... so it would change almost nothing.

Simplest nerf would be to just reduce amount healed by 50% or something, cause really forbearance does not solve anything...

Which would be different from a target having innervate twice in a row how? Or by having Hand of Sacrifice twice? Or by being Rebirthed back to back?

[Hi11topper]

This change would have wiped my guild last night. On anub in 10m, my OT died and so I had adds and the boss on me. I had to use LoH as I slipped down to 300 (!!!!!) hp, then immediatly had to bubble and use trinkets to stay alive long enough for our first kill.

If LoH is used on a druid is he allowed to barksin? Yes, if used on a warrior can he still shield wall? Yes. Same woudl go for a dk (I have no idea for waht their oh shit cd's are).

I like the change some of you have recomended, the whole no forbearance if cast on someone else. If this makes it live and all teh holy palyus and rets in the raid are told to not use LoH on the tank, healers still will. If I'm healing and my tank is dropping like a stone I would use any tool I have to desperatly try to keep him alive. In the heat of the moment, so to speak, woudl be tough to consciously not use a big heal Cd.

Oh well, I'm not too worried about the change. Will probably even have more changes before everything goes live.

[Hi11topper]

How dumber can you get ?
go back to school...

This made me laugh. Grammer for the win!

beat me to it

[Shamb]

how dumber can you get?
you want to work it as * i LoH tank and i cant buble self*
or
*i LoH tank and tank cant buble self*
wthit?

seriously just come back to us from that land of kind fairies and cuddly puppies

What are you talking about ?

I never suggested anything remotely close to what you just said... I said to the guy who suggested it that it wouldn't work...

You quoted me and succesfully got mixed up ? nice ...

[Shamb]

This made me laugh. Grammer for the win!

English ain't my first language... It's my third, so yes my grammer is not perfect, also I don't double check what I write cause am at work right now and can't take all day for this, am in break right now.

Which would be different from a target having innervate twice in a row how? Or by having Hand of Sacrifice twice? Or by being Rebirthed back to back?

I am not sure I understand what you mean ... Are you comparing LoH with hand of sacrifice ?

LoH IS too strong... It needs to be nerfed, I do aggree with blizz on that.
What Deaths suggested is not a nerf... It's simply a minor inconveniance which is easily counterable by a bit of coordination.

If Deaths idea would be adopted:
In raids there is always more then 1 paladin, so if you have a paladin tanks, he can ask for LoH and still pop his shield wall and use his own LoH on some1 else.

In pvp, if you have more then 1 paladin you still could have both LoH and bubble.. so again, no nerf.

That is what I meant by it doesn't work, because it is too easily counterable a nerf to be effective and it would not solve the fact that LoH is too strong.

Unless what you are arguing is that LoH is not too strong... that's another debate.

[Ronark]

I am not sure I understand what you mean ... Are you comparing LoH with hand of sacrifice ?

LoH IS too strong... It needs to be nerfed, I do aggree with blizz on that.
What Deaths suggested is not a nerf... It's simply a minor inconveniance which is easily counterable by a bit of coordination.

If Deaths idea would be adopted:
In raids there is always more then 1 paladin, so if you have a paladin tanks, he can ask for LoH and still pop his shield wall and use his own LoH on some1 else.

In pvp, if you have more then 1 paladin you still could have both LoH and bubble.. so again, no nerf.

That is what I meant by it doesn't work, because it is too easily counterable a nerf to be effective and it would solve the fact that LoH is too strong.

Unless what you are arguing is that LoH is not too strong... that's another debate.

What I mean is that people can still use thier cooldowns meant for other people back to back with no penalty- Why should it be different for LoH?

Again, if LoH is THAT much of an issuse, make it a HoT healing effect rather than 100%, or make it heal for 50% (100% if Holy) and half the cooldown on it to 10 minutes baseline (5 min or 3 min when fully talented/glyphed).

[Shamb]

What I mean is that people can still use thier cooldowns meant for other people back to back with no penalty- Why should it be different for LoH?

Clearer thanks.
Different class different mechanic, forbearance is not the only exemple. A priest cannot PW:S back to back, they got a debuff just like forbearance, albeit shorter duration of course...

I personnaly hate the idea of making LoH proc forbearance too.

Again, if LoH is THAT much of an issuse, make it a HoT healing effect rather than 100%, or make it heal for 50% (100% if Holy) and half the cooldown on it to 10 minutes baseline (5 min or 3 min when fully talented/glyphed).

I aggree with that solution, that's why I said it a couple post back... Forbearance is NOT a solution (imo), they should nerf it some other way. Shorter cooldown less % heal is a nice one. Less OP and more fun for paladin.

Long cd's are not fun and they usually create balance problem when they are up.

[Ronark]

Clearer thanks.
Different class different mechanic, forbearance is not the only exemple. A priest cannot PW:S back to back, they got a debuff just like forbearance, albeit shorter duration of course...

Weaken Soul doesn't prevent a Druid from using Barkskin, a Warrior from Shield Wall-ing, or a DK from using IBF.

[Atylia]

This is such a big nerf because all tanks LoH themselves and all ret palas LoH pala tanks

Oh wait

[Hi11topper]

Weaken Soul doesn't prevent a Druid from using Barkskin, a Warrior from Shield Wall-ing, or a DK from using IBF.

this

[Nillo]

I aggree with that solution, that's why I said it a couple post back... Forbearance is NOT a solution (imo), they should nerf it some other way. Shorter cooldown less % heal is a nice one. Less OP and more fun for paladin.

Long cd's are not fun and they usually create balance problem when they are up.

That's what they ought to do:
Less cd - (I'd say 3-5 min after Glyph/Talent), but still unuseable in Arena (or with a high mana cost, when not talented, so ret/prot will not use it in arena)
Less Heal / Less mana gain - I'd say about 20% stronger than a Holy Light and only a small mana gain.
Add some mana cost - Slightly less than a Holy light, just to keep Ret/Prot from using it.
Improve the effect of the talent - I'd say -30% phys. Damage for 15 seconds (shorter duration, but better effect)

-> It will be a rather decent cd and finally do something in pve (reduce tank damage) other than being the "OH-Shit button that does nothing in most cases and has such a high CD that you can't afford to waste it".

[Darxis]

English ain't my first language... It's my third, so yes my grammer is not perfect, also I don't double check what I write cause am at work right now and can't take all day for this, am in break right now.

I am not sure I understand what you mean ... Are you comparing LoH with hand of sacrifice ?

LoH IS too strong... It needs to be nerfed, I do aggree with blizz on that.
What Deaths suggested is not a nerf... It's simply a minor inconveniance which is easily counterable by a bit of coordination.

If Deaths idea would be adopted:
In raids there is always more then 1 paladin, so if you have a paladin tanks, he can ask for LoH and still pop his shield wall and use his own LoH on some1 else.

In pvp, if you have more then 1 paladin you still could have both LoH and bubble.. so again, no nerf.

That is what I meant by it doesn't work, because it is too easily counterable a nerf to be effective and it would not solve the fact that LoH is too strong.

Unless what you are arguing is that LoH is not too strong... that's another debate.

Wrong. If they were to LoH each other, in the situation that was suggested, they'd both have forbearance from their own LoH. No bubble.

[Borigrad]

i gotta go with ronark here, if lay on hands is so increadably overpowered on the healing scale just make it a hot(100 over 15-20 seconds) or heal for 50%.

[Zka]

But, in all seriousness, LOH is overpowered for PVE.
Imho, it did need the nerf bat.

You mean PVP duels, right?...

[Haxxored]

So new LoH

Instantly heals the target for 25% of their HP as well as increasing their max HP by 20% for 15 seconds (this effect cannot be dispelled). While under +20% HP effect all movement speed is decreased by 30% this speed decrease is tied to the LoH buff and can not be cleared without removing the HP boost buff. LoH moved to a 10 min CD when glyphed 5 min.

The Imp LoH tallent causes the target of your LoH to heal an additional 30/60% of their total HP over 10 seconds this effect is dispelable.

LoH despite the 10 min CD is not usable in Arena

[Halflived]

Not sure how many times I'm gonna have to say this but LOH is NOT A GOOD RAID TOOL!

If there is an occasion other than learning a new fight where LOH is used to save the tank then either the tank/healers screwed something up or the tank/healers are undergeared for the fight. LOH is not a substitute for tanks coordinating their CD's with healers CD's.

[Rtes Hellfire]

LOL, omg pally tanks are dead now, they cant have LoH casted on them OH NOES!

Im sorry but this really isnt that bad, we still have AD DP HoS & Trinkets.

I actually cant remember the last time i needed LoH to save my ass, and if you are relying upon it to save yourself often then somethings wrong with either your healers or tanks.

Besides if a holy pala wants to LoH the tank then just heal some random with it and the beacon should do the rest...assuming your raiding holy pala knows to beacon the tank. Sure you will lose the Imp LoH effect but who cares.

Anyone who says paladin tanks are not PvE viable now is clearly an idiot.

[SolSphere]

LOL, omg pally tanks are dead now, they cant have LoH casted on them OH NOES!

Im sorry but this really isnt that bad, we still have AD DP HoS & Trinkets.

I actually cant remember the last time i needed LoH to save my ass, and if you are relying upon it to save yourself often then somethings wrong with either your healers or tanks.

Besides if a holy pala wants to LoH the tank then just heal some random with it and the beacon should do the rest...assuming your raiding holy pala knows to beacon the tank. Sure you will lose the Imp LoH effect but who cares.

Anyone who says paladin tanks are not PvE viable now is clearly an idiot.

^

But now I gotta train all the holy paladins I meet... /sadface

[Memouri]

The change so that Lay On Hands put forbereance on the target is simply stupid. It hurts paladin tanks but other tanks are fine with it. Simply very stupid and not thought well. But as already mentioned it's not the biggest deal. I'm sure every prot pally will pick divine protection over lay on hands anytime and you shouldn't be relying on it to stay alive(your healers should be healing!) but there are and always will be times when that could've saved your ass which will continue to happen but for other class tanks.

That "Oh shit button" made killing a pally impossible.

Only if you're bad.

[Nikoll]

First off i only read the first page.


from a pve perspective this now becomes a useless spell for myself as ret. I only used it when I needed mana. So on the occasional fight when i was hitting a bubble and not getting mana returns from judgment and if i am battle rezed. Now I can't do so. Can't used AD right after or before. No other defensive CDs. This is going to be pure "give someone else mana" spell for me now.
And on times i tank i rarely use it on boss fights. generaly you live or die by those boss hits. no inbetween where you can use loh. Its trash that this can hurt. cant SW and LoH if healers are dumb and die.

For PVP with the rated BGs i can see why they want to change this, but Forbarance is not the answer.