Bloodlust (moonkins)

[Goatonlb]

Any class can get all the buffs on Hodir. Everyone in same boat.
You can move to Sunbeam to get haste.
You can move to person with Sorm Cloud and get Storm Power.
All casters benefit on same level from Singed on Hodir.

And those buffs emulate your dps stat increase as result showing your scale potential.

That's still mad RNG. Anyone can get all the buffs stacked up right and never have to move. If you had it happen to you, it doesn't mean you can post your dps and claim that you're fine and can compete all the time. It's a gimmick fight, that's too difficult to simulate with any type of consistency. If you compared two classes with full buffs 100% of the time, then sure, but that'll likely never ever happen.

A way to change NG is to remove the haste benefit it gives - that gives us the option of getting more haste before we reach the soft cap. Then it could simply be a damage buff (x% more damage or whatnot), and a portion of our damage would come from this added bonus. This would scale with crit quite easely.

I like this idea, it seems to work two-fold for problem solvers. What about changing eclipse itself? The talent still leads to RNG, another big problem we have. The general consensus is "Yea ocasionally you'll spam wrath and never proc eclipse, deal with it". What if you up the proc chance to 100%, but drop the damage it does. Would smoothing out the rotations and guaranteeing nearly 100% uptime be worth the dmg loss (whatever % it might be?)

[serif]

Bloodlust is a great spell. No doubt it increases our damage, but it doesn’t quite offer the same benefits to us as it does to other classes. It’s like getting the smallest piece of cake. Sure, you get some cake, but not as much as all the other kids!

Why am I complaining about bloodlust? During a 40 second bloodlust, we can expect to have two eclipse buffs – 15 seconds of lunar eclipse, 15 seconds of solar eclipse and give or take 10 seconds to spare. While we are spamming starfire under lunar eclipse, with almost a 100% chance to crit, with a cast time of under two seconds, and our damage flies upwards. That’s great, and its great for everyone. But then the long haste buff is ripped away from us, like the class bully stealing our lunch money, when solar eclipse procs.

What to do? Continue casting faster starfires with 45% less chance to crit (with tier 8 2-piece bonus) or switch to wrath to benefit from the +45% damage increase. Our damage is dependant on taking advantage of eclipse, and while Mr. Mage and Mrs. Rogue gets a flat benefit to their damage for the full 40 seconds, we are at a loss once lunar eclipse falls off.

Bloodlust is absolutely useless when we are spamming wrath, because we will usually have a constant buff from Nature’s Grace, bringing our cast time down to the global cooldown, regardless of having bloodlust or not. We gain absolutely nothing from the 30% haste increase when we are spamming wrath, and we have to either let go of half of the duration and gain from bloodlust, or continue casting starfire without the benefit of eclipse. Fast starfires are nice and all, but 1,7 (ish) second starfires still struggle to live up to +45% damage 1 second wraths.

How do you handle it?

Shamelessly stolen from my blog, to spike the conversation.

are you wanting a nerf to nature's grace or something that would not proc as much keeping you from being on the gcd so that during bloodlust you can benefit from the 30% haste?

im not sure what exactly you want? lol

so haste isn't as good for you as it is for some other people, just pretend you don't have a shaman and he never used bloodlust if it helps you sleep better.

[Deleted]

There's no need to be hypocrite. Your guild logs
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/S.../?s=533&e=1048
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/S...?s=1591&e=1851

That's over a month ago now lol don't be daft Last night ;
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...e/?s=261&e=465
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=1479&e=1670

only fight where that shaman would be useful is hodir.

[Goatonlb]

are you wanting a nerf to nature's grace or something that would not proc as much keeping you from being on the gcd so that during bloodlust you can benefit from the 30% haste?

im not sure what exactly you want? lol

so haste isn't as good for you as it is for some other people, just pretend you don't have a shaman and he never used bloodlust if it helps you sleep better.

He means change it not nerf it. Right now when it procs it reduces our cast time. This means we need less haste to hit the soft cap. If we didn't have this, we could use more haste on gear to reach the cap, and use this talent for a straight damage gain. This would also value crit, because crit procs the talent. We have too much haste and crit. Increase the amount of haste we need, which reduces our crit, but ups it's value. It's a win/win for both stats.

[Deleted]

I like this idea, it seems to work two-fold for problem solvers. What about changing eclipse itself? The talent still leads to RNG, another big problem we have. The general consensus is "Yea ocasionally you'll spam wrath and never proc eclipse, deal with it". What if you up the proc chance to 100%, but drop the damage it does. Would smoothing out the rotations and guaranteeing nearly 100% uptime be worth the dmg loss (whatever % it might be?)

I wasn't my idea, mind you (well it was, too, but someone else posted this earlier in the thread, so at least dont give credit to me).

Upping eclipse to 100% on wrath crit wont do very much for us. Its usually up pretty fast, and while it would iron out the problems (yesterday i went through a full bloodlust without a single lunar eclipse! :'(), they are very few, and usually doesn't cause many problems. This would be a minor buff, and as we get more crit, we are getting closer to this point anyways.

The way i see a fix, is to introduce a spell that gives us an alternative when we are limited by various factors. That would reduce the stress from eclipse in general, because we would put this spell into our rotation. When under bloodlust, we could cast this instead of wrath, and this spell could be one that benefits from getting haste and crit over the soft cap. I hate doing this, but id really like to point you towards two of my blogs (Caps and What about me), because this talks about my beef with this a lot more.

are you wanting a nerf to nature's grace or something that would not proc as much keeping you from being on the gcd so that during bloodlust you can benefit from the 30% haste?

im not sure what exactly you want? lol

so haste isn't as good for you as it is for some other people, just pretend you don't have a shaman and he never used bloodlust if it helps you sleep better.

Yes, i think changing Nature's Grace is an excellent idea, so the damage gain is still the same, but it allows us to stack more haste from gear. A very easy fix would be to make it a damage increase instead of a haste increase, and a lot of our problems would disappear - we could continue scaling through haste in IC, we would benefit more from bloodlust and my headaches would be fewer.

On the second part of your post, i think you, as a poster earlier, dont realise the significance this will have on us when we go into Icecrown and start gearing up there.

That's over a month ago now lol don't be daft Last night ;
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...e/?s=261&e=465
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=1479&e=1670

only fight where that shaman would be useful is hodir.

Three minute fights, mate. Not good :P

[Whistler]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...e/?s=261&e=465
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=1479&e=1670

You comparing dps on XT (NORMAL!!) fight where ppl dpsing heart (3 times!) for insane numbers and Iron Council fight where people stand in runes to get insane boost with DPS done on other fight in Colliseum? /pat Link your guild logs from Colliseum or non-gimmick fights.

[Deleted]

@Qieth it's the only fights we've logged recently :P (altho horrible attempts on IC hardmodes ruined the night :'( )

Either way I'm not here to argue the DPS of an elemental shaman on a regular run. That DPS is extremely low hence why they are ranked at the bottom atm with Spriests, everyone here knows this.

The point about bloodlust you could talk till the cows come home but unless they 'fix eclipse' hence changing a lot of things with druids we're just going to have to deal with it. Being honest it's not really an issue if you look at the above logs you can see when heroism procs that my DPS goes up a good amount, given the arcane mages goes up by a little bit more but I'm not too worried about that

[karungash]

drink speed pots
use your haste trink (if u have one)
and expect another lunar eclipse
2 lunar, 1 solar i usually get
plus if you use wise eclipse addon it cancels solar ecp when your lunar cd wears off = win.

[Deleted]

You comparing dps on XT (NORMAL!!) fight where ppl dpsing heart (3 times!) for insane numbers and Iron Council fight where people stand in runes to get insane boost with DPS done on other fight in Colliseum? /pat Link your guild logs from Colliseum or non-gimmick fights.

Coming from the guy who linked hodir...I will once we log them.

[Whistler]

That's still mad RNG. Anyone can get all the buffs stacked up right and never have to move. If you had it happen to you, it doesn't mean you can post your dps and claim that you're fine and can compete all the time. It's a gimmick fight, that's too difficult to simulate with any type of consistency. If you compared two classes with full buffs 100% of the time, then sure, but that'll likely never ever happen.

First of all it's not my performance, get over it i'm not flexing here i'm druid not shaman.
Secondly i know that guy and he consistantly shows high numbers on Hodir (not only but you are somehow think it's RNG so i'm discussing it).
If someone is unable to get high buff uptime on Hodir, it's player behind character problem not class problem.

[Deleted]

First of all it's not my performance, get over it i'm not flexing here i'm druid not shaman.
Secondly i know that guy and he consistantly shows high numbers on Hodir (not only but you are somehow think it's RNG so i'm discussing it).
If someone is unable to get high buff uptime on Hodir, it's player behind character problem not class problem.

Can you not stfu about this argument and get back on topic please , we're discussing the usefulness of bloodlust / heroism in comparison to a boomkin... not elemental shamans , not hodir , not your lover who does average DPS as an elemental shaman....

[Whistler]

On this, i disagree. When we are spamming starfire during lunar eclipse, we do crazy damage. Id like you to watch this video, a random hodir hard mode kill. I peaked at freaking 21k+ DPS, due to luck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYvbp_MHKAM
Hodir is not a constant battle, and there is a lot of random in it. And even classes spells are affected differently, because singed only benefit crits, beams only gives haste (liek, lol wrath), some classes can move around the room faster to pick up buffs and so on.

I totally disagree that Hodir is random battle. It might benefit some classes more due to movement possibilities but buffs affecting everyone evenly! Only difference is exact class mechanics that shows INSANE scaling differences among caster classes.
Your nonconsistant numbers on Hodir only proving that random part caused by ECLIPSE mechanics which is class mechanics, not by outside buffs provided in this fight.

[Azyoulike]

Lets consider some numbers.

BL is up for 20% of a short fight, and that's being generous. Assume everybody else gets a 30% DPS bump and you get a 15% DPS bump from BL - again that's an exaggeration.

The result would be over the entire fight you're down 15% of 20%, ie 3%, and for a long fight like heroic Anub I estimate an upper limit of a 1.5% dps difference.

The percentage wouldn't increase with gear levels

I totally disagree that Hodir is random battle. It might benefit some classes more due to movement possibilities but buffs affecting everyone evenly!

No they don't because only a limited number of people (6 in 25 man) can receive the stormcloud buff each time. Hodir is thus enormously random.

[Whistler]

Can you not stfu about this argument and get back on topic please , we're discussing the usefulness of bloodlust / heroism in comparison to a boomkin... not elemental shamans , not hodir , not your lover who does average DPS as an elemental shaman....

GJ going personal when got no arguments. I didn't start arguing nor started discussing other classes. So far i saw only claims from you without serious proof so chill and come back when you not that butthurt anymore.

As for my contribution i stated what's needed to be done on page one and been discussing it and scaling problems with OP who seems the only person who understands what we speak about in this thead. Hodir is example of fight that shows class scaling.

[Goatonlb]

First of all it's not my performance, get over it i'm not flexing here i'm druid not shaman.
Secondly i know that guy and he consistantly shows high numbers on Hodir (not only but you are somehow think it's RNG so i'm discussing it).
If someone is unable to get high buff uptime on Hodir, it's player behind character problem not class problem.

So it's not RNG when the beams spawn on top of you, when people with storm cloud move to YOU and not the other way around, when ice never falls on your head, and you only have to strafe 1 step to the side to avoid freeze? Those all seem to be pretty large dps gain, player-NON-dependant, events to me. As Qieth posted, he reached 21k dps on a Hodir HM fight, that doesn't mean he will every time, or mean anything about the class in general.

The way i see a fix, is to introduce a spell that gives us an alternative when we are limited by various factors. That would reduce the stress from eclipse in general, because we would put this spell into our rotation. When under bloodlust, we could cast this instead of wrath, and this spell could be one that benefits from getting haste and crit over the soft cap.

If you were to add a channeled spell to the rotation that would benefit from both crit/haste during BL, what kind of cast time would you give it? What kind of time between ticks would make it not worth spamming all fight long vs. worthy to use with 30% haste over wrath? Both probably numbers we can't come up with, but is this along the lines of what you're thinking?

[Deleted]

drink speed pots
use your haste trink (if u have one)
and expect another lunar eclipse
2 lunar, 1 solar i usually get
plus if you use wise eclipse addon it cancels solar ecp when your lunar cd wears off = win.

You cannot get two full lunar eclipses within a bloodlust. If you had bothered to read the previous 3 posts, then you would know that you can get a maximum of 25 seconds of lunar eclipse in a bloodlust, but this is highly unlikely. Likewise, since we use WiseEclipse, we go straight from Lunar into Solar, so when solar is up, lunar will be off CD. You are contradicting yourself quite a bit.

Every other caster use pots during bloodlust aswell. You seem confused about the issue here.

I totally disagree that Hodir is random battle. It might benefit some classes more due to movement possibilities but buffs affecting everyone evenly! Only difference is exact class mechanics that shows INSANE scaling differences among caster classes.
Your nonconsistant numbers on Hodir only proving that random part caused by ECLIPSE mechanics which is class mechanics, not by outside buffs provided in this fight.

Random elements:

- You may not be able to get storm power up constantly.
- One storm power can overwrite another storm power, which means some people might be refreshing it, and taking the charge you could have had. (this is very easy to do by mistake, and its hardly a player issue).
- Different classes benefit differently from the haste and the singed buff.
- The mere fact that we have a lot of movement during Hodir is a MASSIVE random factor. When you have to move, you have all directions as options. You might be lucky and run left, and then have a person at your left get storm power. Or you may run right, and be too far away and you can't get it. You might run towards a light pillar, only to have an icicle drop on it as you are about to reach it, or it may despawn. You may be able to stand in a light pillar for ages, next to a fire, without having to move due to pure luck.

Hodir is an amasingly random fight, and not at all one to compare ANY kind of damage on. I have swung from 9k DPS to 18k DPS, all because of luck. Now, please, i dont want to be discussing hodir or shamans anymore :P

If you were to add a channeled spell to the rotation that would benefit from both crit/haste during BL, what kind of cast time would you give it? What kind of time between ticks would make it not worth spamming all fight long vs. worthy to use with 30% haste over wrath? Both probably numbers we can't come up with, but is this along the lines of what you're thinking?

Im sorry, but i dont have an answer for that. I was merely throwing around ideas. I do plan on making a blog that includes my take on fixing talents and spells, but i need to brood on it a bit more.

[Whistler]

No they don't because only a limited number of people (6 in 25 man) can receive the stormcloud buff each time. Hodir is thus enormously random.

Wrong. 2 shamans giving 2 buffs with 6 charges each for 30 seconds on average every 20 seconds.
So thats 12 buffs - enough to give to MT and your ranged casters.

[Deleted]

Wrong. 2 shamans giving 2 buffs with 6 charges each for 30 seconds on average every 20 seconds.
So thats 12 buffs - enough to give to MT and your ranged casters.

From above:

- One storm power can overwrite another storm power, which means some people might be refreshing it, and taking the charge you could have had. (this is very easy to do by mistake, and its hardly a player issue).

EDIT: Compare the two highest DPS on your Hodir kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=2931&e=3086
Shaman: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=2931&e=3086
5 storm powers, 73% uptime.
Mage: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=2931&e=3086
4 storm powers, 57% uptime.

And those are just for the two top DPS.. random much?

[tarrick]

I totally disagree that Hodir is random battle. It might benefit some classes more due to movement possibilities but buffs affecting everyone evenly! Only difference is exact class mechanics that shows INSANE scaling differences among caster classes.
Your nonconsistant numbers on Hodir only proving that random part caused by ECLIPSE mechanics which is class mechanics, not by outside buffs provided in this fight.

No, Hodir does not scale everyone evenly. Some classes have a large percentage of their DPS as critical hits and this causes the huge crit damage buff to blow those numbers out of proportion. You're not just getting buffs that you would normally scale with from gear or raid buffs, the crit damage buff changes all of that. Elemental Shamans deal a large percentage of their damage in the form of crits, and this is why their Hodir damage scales higher than their normal DPS would.

And whether or not you get benefit from the full duration of Bloodlust does not matter one bit. Instead, show your normal DPS outside of Bloodlust then your DPS over the full duration of Bloodlust and get the percent increase that the full duration of Bloodlust provides. Use that as a comparison to other classes instead. If you could spam Eclipsed+Bloodlusted Starfires for the entire duration then that would be incredibly overpowered. You have a portion of your rotation that scales incredibly well from haste and a portion that does not scale from haste at all, since you will be going through both during Bloodlust, you have to calculate the mean benefit. Just saying you only benefit from part of the buff is a ridiculous argument.

[Goatonlb]

The percentage wouldn't increase with gear levels

Wouldn't it for boomkins? BL has more of a value for us with shitty gear as we're probably not near the haste soft-cap, thus benefiting both SF and wrath. When our haste reaches the soft cap with NG and BL doesn't benefit wrath anymore, then the relative value of the buff diminishes. Not every class runs into this issue with BL.