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  1. #1

    Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Recently there has been a large push from healers to ignore healing meters. The thought is that because encounters and damage taken is dynamic it's a better measure of skill to be able to save a life than it is to top a meter. This ideal is pushed along by several scenarios in which specific healers can directly prevent a death. A Holy Priest with Body and Soul can give a speed boost to players and allow them to escape otherwise inescapable damage. A Discipline Priest on the other hand can apply Power Word: Shield in anticipation of damage and reduce spikes that would be fatal otherwise. However, these individual scenarios do not typically outweigh the overall nature of a fight. Ultimately promoting the idea that meters aren't of consequence hurts the healing community and can lead to dangerous situations for your raids.

    The kind of thinking that encourages the ignorance to meters and other parsing sources has come up frequently in the past since the first damage meters began to pop up. At some point most of you have been involved in some form of drama regarding meters for DPS. Some guilds even forbid the posting of meters. The main objection is that the meters themselves cause drama, but this is completely counter productive. The solution to these types of disputes should never be to limit information, either by dismissing meters, or disallowing them entirely. They should always be resolved by expanding the information so that the situation can be fully understood.

    In the cast of damage meters the best way to do this would be an analysis of raid composition and role assignment. If people are missing key raid buffs, or they've been assigned to do something their class doesn't perform optimally then to some extent user error can be ruled out. Furthermore a subject may actually be doing very well in the overall encounter despite showing up low on meters. A prime example of this is Anub'arak. During phase two your DPS time is highly variable due to being focused, or being able to reach scarabs. So while you may show as being last on DPS you may in fact by near the top on the portions of the fight that do matter. The same concept can be applied to healers, but only if we accept that meters do matter.

    The 'saving lives' argument is flawed. When determining at what healer legitimately saved the most lives the answer is simple. Look at the incoming heals on the tanks and find who healed them the most. Those individuals are the healers who saved the most lives in almost all encounters. Take the tank in questions health and divide the incoming heals from a particular healer by that amount, then multiply by 10, or 25 depending on raid size. They most likely saved that many lives over the course of a fight, because if that tank died then the raid would have wiped entirely. You can subtract 10/25 for each Rebirth, any Soul Stones and any procs from Guardian Spirit, but the limited nature compared to the overwhelming healing won't make a large difference.

    Now compare to raid healers who can be determined in a similar way by looking at individual lives saved by healing. Looking at the players healed individually and assigning value to their life may seem odd, but it's also quite realistic. If an encounter requires your current healer count then each healer is worth 10/25. If and only if you're hitting enrage timers, or other DPS race situations then you can assign DPS value at 10/25 as well. Ultimately what this all implies is that healing meters give a larger overall picture than those wishing to ignore meters understand, or admit.

    Furthermore the promoting of the mentality that meters don't matter misses the mark even more when individual stats are looked into. Most modern meters show not only how much you healed, but how much you overhealed, who you healed, what you healed them with, what incoming damage they took, how players died and so on. Encouraging healers to ignore meters, rather than to fully analyze them is going to hurt new players and hurt raid progress. Being very high, or very low on meters is a good litmus test for who is doing well, or doing poorly.

    Some of the debate stems from the belief that some heals are more important than others. For instance a healer may be high on a meter, but ignored something like Frozen Blows, or didn't heal a Legion Flame target. Those allow a healer who didn't properly know the encounter to slip through. However this can easily be seen when looking at who healed the Legion Flame target, or who healed the PC target, or what group died during Frozen Blows. This does not mean that meters don't matter. Most meters can show deaths now, which can be used to show those priority targets deaths and see who was healing them and compare to who was supposed to be healing them.

    The other argument revolves around removing raid stress. The idea is that somethings is less 'scary' when done a certain way. The flaw here is that something being scary doesn't imply that it's actually harder. There are cases where some utility can be used to prevent unhealable situations. Body and Soul is one of the prime examples, particularly on Anub'arak hard mode. What should be kept in mind however is how many lives are saved by such action. While preventing someone from taking a flame patch on beasts might be nice, it's also not an important event. There are a lot of situations like this where you reduce incoming damage instead of healing, but this must be considered along with the impact healing would have had. Use the flame patch example and look at how much damage was prevented by pre-shielding, or other intervention. Now check the throughput of your raid healers and look at the actual impact of trying to avoid damage in those cases. Often times the easier solution is going to be to heal through the damage rather than to avoid it.

    That leads back to the initial point: What healers need to do is not ignore meters, but to accept them. Accept that raw healing is in fact both a measure of power and skill. Those on the top of meters in general are the best healers at reacting to and dealing with incoming damage. Instead of foolishly denying this in arguments you should provide further information. If a healer does not perform their job, or you are performing better than meters imply then supply adequate defense. Denying evidence is going to hurt you and your raid. Instead give context to that information, or provide additional evidence. Meters provide much more analysis and data than simply who healed the most and if you're trying to convince someone of your worth compared to someone who is healing for much more then you should use that evidence yourself. Ignorance is never the proper solution to these types of problems.

    Healing meters are not something that can be stacked and someone who produced a massive amount of healing most likely is very skilled. Ignoring that is disrespectful to your fellow healers and will ultimately cause damage to any argument you attempt to make. If you are faced with an argument involving meters and you disagree with what they may imply then you need to find evidence that supports it. If a healer producing double your healing was also not healing the right targets, or standing in flames, then find that information. Find who they healed to produce those numbers, find their damage taken, or find something else that proves the point. Dismissing meters is nothing short of ignorance and that has been the case since meters first came out. Leaders and other players who do understand their merit will take the dismissal of those meters as covering for incompetence, or lack of knowledge. Meters do matter, they're just not all that matters.

  2. #2

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    bravo.

  3. #3

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Well, your text was tl;dr.

    I did read the first half though, and i have to agree that meters does not matter for healers. For DPS though, that's an entirely different matter.

    Basically, a DPS will always have something to dps (in 99% of the cases anyway) which healers will not. It can be argued that certain players show up low on dps meters because they are doing a particular job (ex. kiting). Of course these players need to be ignored. However, on Anub this is a different matter. A good DPSer will push good dps while kiting the spikes perfectly. He will not do half-arsed on either.

    As a healer myself i sometimes have a hard time with meters. People judge you just from how much HPS you do and not whom you did it to etc. For example, I'm healing a naxx10 pug. It's me and a priest. The priest is constantly running around, topping everyone up even though I already had a rejuv on them. This means I get HUGE overhealing and very little effective healing meaning I show up bad on meters. Did I do something wrong? No.
    It would be an entirely different matter if I had a target that was always under 100% hp and my goal was to heal him as much as I could (like that fight in ICC). Then we could be talking meters but right now meters are just about who lands their heal first. For example, as a druid it is very hard to compete on meters when the raid isn't taking a ton of constant damage.

  4. #4

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratzzz
    Well, your text was tl;dr.

    I did read the first half though, and i have to agree that meters does not matter for healers. For DPS though, that's an entirely different matter.
    No offense intended, but if you're going to reply like this you should really reconsider. You claim to have read the first half, but you apparently didn't even bother to read the conclusion of the first paragraph and the thesis of the entire post: Ultimately promoting the idea that meters aren't of consequence hurts the healing community and can lead to dangerous situations for your raids.

  5. #5

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Good read. While I agree with your general point (Meters do matter so some extent) I think you failed to point out some important things, for example dispels. I was never at very high of healing meters during our endless numbers of Yogg-Saron attempts but then on the other hand I topped the dispels.
    And some speccs and assignments just produce a higher HPS: group healing as holy priest or shaman is always good for a first place in healing.
    But still, 90% of the time you are mostly right, I suppose.

    edit: Yes, you said that modern meters show more than just HPS, I just wanted to stress out those two points

  6. #6

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    i would not tell anyone to straight up ignore meters. nor would i say they're mandatory by any means. the problem i think you're trying to address stems from an issue much deeper. those who say healers should ignore meters (while i cannot speak for them all and would never assume to) are not at fault, and certainly some do not mean that quite literally.

    the problem is rather how people view meters. being on top is best... well to the simple minded. as is brought up in any topic concerning the use of meters, and it's true, being on top does not mean you are the best, or executing your role properly. there are many factors, that while registered and recorded by meters, are often over looked.

    some people will always try to just top meters for the self gratification and spamable 'proof' of their greatness. those who would tell said individuals to ignore meters when in the role of a healer are justified. someone in the position to maintain the survival of the raid, specifically those that rely on it, should not be concerned with winning some sort of healing output race. healing the right person at the right, making good use of utilities when needed, these are what really matter. and while yes, they can be seen with some looking through meters, if you know the encounter, your class and how to execute the role well meters are optional. this is not to say meters are useless, they're a great tool but are not a must and in many cases because of how they've viewed and not used to their full potential and usefulness, should simply not be used at all.

    in short, meters are a great tool to help persons see what they're doing, evaluate situations and refine their game play. however, those who use it simply for epeen purposes would be doing many others a favor by simply disabling it.

    edit: minor corrections

  7. #7
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    There seems to be two camps when it comes to healing meters. One says that meters are generally proportional to skill; one says they don't matter at all. Personally, I think each camp takes it a bit too far. In some cases, it's easy to top meters and be doing a bad job, like not healing Incinerate Flesh on Jaraxxus or clipping other peoples heals. However, if someone is showing up with 1k HPS while other people are pulling 5-6k, then chances are they're doing something wrong. Each camp has an important point that they are pointing out, but each point is only meaningful if in the context of the other.

    For instance, meters are very meaningful when trying to figure out what's going wrong with healing. Twins is a good example of this, where if people are dying in the raid, and one raid healer is doing 8k and another is only doing 4k, if they're both full-time on the raid, chances are that the latter healer needs to do something to improve his throughput. However, taking that 8k raid healer and comparing it to the Paladin who is, more or less, keeping both tanks full by himself but putting up only 4-5k, doesn't make sense because they're doing different jobs and unless the Paladin can spare some GCDs, which he almost certainly cannot, there's very little he can do to help with raid deaths.

    It's this latter part that the anti-meter crowd latches onto. I actually think it's been more of a good thing until recently because the HPS meters made Discipline look worthless. Time and again I remember having to defend the Discipline Priest when we were doing Naxx because people would look at the effective healing, see him consistently on the bottom, and then question me about his performance. However, since then, tools have gotten a lot better and it's easier to see how effective absorption is, so that excuse just doesn't really fly anymore.

    My perspective is simply that, there's a very high correlation between meters and DPS performance; while the correlation between meters and healer performance, while not as high as it is for DPS, is still meaningful in most situations and shouldn't be ignored. Just like you can't fairly compare melee to casters on a fight like Hodir, context is at least as important with healers. So, I guess this is just a long way of saying that I generally agree with the OP.

  8. #8

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Healing meters are just one tool that can be used to evaluate a healer's performance. Healing meters can be stacked by playing poorly. If a druid raid healer is tossing rejuv's on the raid to cover low, consistent damage, and I see and know that a rejuv is already on a target, I could still toss a flash heal to heal the target to full, increasing the overhealing done by that druid and wasting my own mana, but I just moved up the healing done meter so I must be the better healer, right? Certainly better than a priest who would have let the existing heal do its job and look for another target to heal. Healing is much more of a team effort than dps is, and can't be judged strictly on meters.

  9. #9

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I think meters still should be used more for personal information gathering rather than for broadcasting them to the raid simply to call out someone who may be under-performing. In a case like that i'd say its up to the raid leader to have a private conversation with someone who is though to be under-performing and hopefully get the situation resolved.

    If a raid is successful, and completes an encounter without a hitch then i'd say the meters are pointless... you won, what more do you want? If you struggle and continue to wipe then I believe its fair to go to the meters as a starting point and get a lead on what the problems may be.

    I don't heal so i can't speak for that part of the argument, but I know with DPS there are often times things you need to be doing that lower your dps while at the same time ensure raid survival.

    example?

    melee running to kill snobolds on gormock... running = less dps uptime = lower dps, but a snobold on too many healers can wipe a raid.

    I've been in a raid once where I was running around killing snobolds and another melee stayed on gormock the whole time. at the end of the fight he had the audacity to post meters and brag about his #1 spot on the list. this is why i think meters never need to be posted publicly. Its fine to keep them to yourself, but showing off the meters in raid chat have little to no use at all. the people who are high on the list already know they are high on the list, and the people who suck already know they suck... you don't need to call them out on it. If it is really a problem the people not performing well shouldn't expect to be ridiculed in public, but simpley PM'd by the raid leader offering assistance.

    Once meters start showing up in raid chat, people do everything they can to increase their position and may neglect important raid duties just to keep dps'ing the boss. That's when mistakes happen.




    another huge pet peeve of mine is people posting meters after a wipe. if you wipe, being #1 dps doesn't mean shit, you died. l2win before you stroke your epeen.


    cliffs: there is no reason to ever post meters publicly. if someone is having performance issues, a private message will suffice.

  10. #10

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by serif
    cliffs: there is no reason to ever post meters publicly. if someone is having performance issues, a private message will suffice.
    While I agree with most of your post, I can't agree with this. It would imply that there's also no point in posting logs. It would also imply that people who are unable to run a meter themselves for whatever reason are out of luck.

    @Ragdoll: Yeah, those two points are covered actually. Dispel counts and looking at incoming DPS on your assignment is certainly a good argument.

  11. #11

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I think you contradict yourself numerous times... healing meters tell a very specific story but healing is far more dynamic to be boiled down to who healed the most.

    Healing meters do not show, unnecessary snipe healing, damage prevention, whether people were always safe from damage or spent unnecessary time at dangerous health levels. There is a myraid of more important facts that combat logs may show that a simple, total healed meter doesn't even begin to describe.

    You seem to advocate that healing meters means something and then describe all the reasons why it means very little. So I'm confused what your point is... at least it appears to be a balanced point of view which you rarely get these days.

    I think the game has become very pug dominant and as always, strangers like to show off their epeen with other strangers so link meters somehow reinforces their mighty egos. Healing on the one hand isn't a linear skill, ie. the most heal doesnt always equate to the best healer. Simple rejuv spamming isn't showing any real thought or skill. However charging up lifeblooms to 'bloom' just after burst damage hits a raid is actually using some skill or thought.

    DPS is slightly different in that their roles are extremely linear, more damage always equates to some sort of gain. However even that doesnt always tell a story. At the end of a run checking the death meter can show a pretty decent story or the damage taken. DPS have a knack of thinking their DPS means more than their survivability or their ability to avoid damage. Of course a DPS that thinks that way just takes resources of healers and makes their job more difficult which in turn makes the raids job more difficult. These things aren't in the forefront of most pugs minds though, gain the DPS meters reinforce their opinions of themselves, most of which play faceroll ret pallys or some other class where its impossible not to do some sort of decent damage.

    In any case, meters should be left for guilds who anaylse the data properly to find out how their strats measure up. Find out clues about why they can't clear certain encounters (talking hard mode/heroic encounters). In terms of linking them in some random raid it means nothing... if anything it shows how vain the person is in linking them or asking for them to be linked.

  12. #12

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    I think you contradict yourself numerous times... healing meters tell a very specific story but healing is far more dynamic to be boiled down to who healed the most.
    If you find that I contradict myself I'd appreciate it being pointed out specifically, rather than simply being thrown out as hyperbole before launching into an unrelated post. The closest you came was the misunderstanding that I was explaining that healing meters mean very little, when I said no such thing. I know you greatly enjoy trolling, but please at least make sense and show some comprehension for what is actually being said. The entire argument was about dismissing hard data without showing anything to contextualize that data and how that has been hurting the healing community.

    If you'd like to point out some actual contradictions I'd be happy to elaborate, but upon rereading I was unable to find anything like what you're implying.

  13. #13

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundas
    Intimidating wall of text is intimidating. I'll pass, thanks.
    Stupid and meaningless comment is stupid and meaningless...

    Healing meters can give a LOT of useful info when used properly. If one holy pally is at 6k hps and another is at 3k hps, and they have similar assignments (as they should) it's obvious that one has much better reaction time and/or skill than the other. Of course, comparing a paladin's healing to a druid's healing in Twins, where there's an epic amount of raid damage with little tank damage, would be pretty meaningless.

    Like any other tool in Azeroth or IRL, it's only useful if you know what you're doing.

  14. #14

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    While I agree with most of your post, I can't agree with this. It would imply that there's also no point in posting logs. It would also imply that people who are unable to run a meter themselves for whatever reason are out of luck.

    @Ragdoll: Yeah, those two points are covered actually. Dispel counts and looking at incoming DPS on your assignment is certainly a good argument.
    is it that hard to whisper someone and say 'hey, im not running recount, can you whisper meters back to me?'

    posting them after every boss fight in a raid just makes the people at the bottom feel like shit, whats the point of that? there is none, except i guess it makes the people at the top feel good about themselves... if you need that to sleep better at night then I can understand the need to post them.

    The information is useful, yes... and if its useful to you then you'd be running recount, otherwise you obviously don't care. Yeah, maybe you want to cut down on lag by not running recount but thats when you just ask a friend to keep you updated.

    It just looks really crappy to me whenever you see the same guy posting recount in raidchat over and over when he's the #1 dps.. its like a big 'hey look how awesome i am! LOLOLOLOLOL you guys all suck' - people like that don't end up on any friends list of mine. If that happens i usually post the 'deaths count' to show him what else he's #1 at.

    Logs are more comprehensive and show more of the story than just 1 number in a list. And logs are usually posted on guild forums where its more of a constructive after-the-fact type educational setting, not an on the spot who's good and who's a retard public-shame session. all it does is cause drama, like the OP said.

    i stand firm on the opinion that recount should remain a private matter, and if there are issues they can be discussed 1 on 1 between the raid/guild leader and the person who has the issue. no need to make people feel bad, even though i know WoW is full of jerks just waiting for the opportunity.


    P.S. not to mention the inconsistency recount experiences from person to person. some people don't have pets bound to their master for example, so one person can post recount and it will be several hundred dps off of what another person might have. So now people are arguing numbers that can't even be proven accurate. Logs are better in this manner and that's another reason meter numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.

  15. #15

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Meters do not matter.
    Performance matters.

    Nuff said.

  16. #16

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I totally agree.

    Meters only mean so much and you have to take into context the data it's giving you.

    I will typically top the meters slightly in our 10 mans, but I know that the other two healers that are with me are rocking it out as far as tank healing, dispells, saving those that I can't get to quick enough, etc.

    When people start falling over dead, then you should start looking at the meters and wonder "ok, what's going on? Tanks not getting heals? Tanks getting insta-gibbed? People just standing around not doing anything (a la carried)?"

    Meters are a wonderful tool but just that, as far as healing is concerned. DPS (unless you're kiting, doing other necessary tasks ) is another matter all together.

    *edited because dyslexia is fun apparently....*

  17. #17

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    In any case, meters should be left for guilds who anaylse the data properly to find out how their strats measure up. Find out clues about why they can't clear certain encounters (talking hard mode/heroic encounters). In terms of linking them in some random raid it means nothing... if anything it shows how vain the person is in linking them or asking for them to be linked.
    This is the true importance of healing meters. It tells me who people are healing, it tells me if people are doing their correct assignments, and it tells me generally how dynamic of a healer they are.

    Now I'm talking strictly from a raiding guild perspective. Honestly, I could care a less how meters and PuGs relate, as I never PuG a raid.

    The true tests of healers are:

    (a) Is the boss dead?
    (b) Did anyone die due to lack of healing?

    If the answers are yes and no respectively, then who gives a rats ass about the meters besides a personal tool to help you tweak your performance?

    Take Twins for example. Druids top the meters. Period. The encounter maximizes their healing power, style, and efficiency. However, what about the group that just got hit by two orbs at once? Are the druid HoTs going to keep them alive? Perhaps. But a Serenx3 PoH + CoH will make certain the job gets done. Lets say you have a druid and a holy priest... the holy priest fails to recognize the need for burst AoE and two raid members die. The druid was unable to focus all five with enough burst healing before the other two were succumbed by another orb that crashes into the group 3sec later. This is a poor holy priest. However, if the holy priest does properly respond to the situation, he saves all 5 group members. The druid still beats him on the meters by a landslide, but is that an indication of skill or an indication of fight/class mechanics?

    Do meters matter? Yes. For tweaking performance.
    Do meters equal skill? Relative to the situation, assignment, and class.

  18. #18

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I really like Zeuq's response, healing meters are important but not everything. Yes, they should be looked at and analyzed. No, more hps doesn't always mean a better healer like unlike with dps where a higher dps almost always means a better dps. The problem is that analyzing healing meters is very complicated, and the average wow player won't be able to analyze who is healing what at what times with what spells and prevents someone from dieing or incoming damage or dispels etc., its too hard.

    So basically, yes I agree that meters should not be ignored, but people need to realize that hps is not the only variable that can measure healing. Nor can you expect every single player to understand how to analyze healing. The main point of ignoring hps meters was to stop noob raid leaders usually from pugs or confused guild raid leaders from replacing or kicking healers who were pulling their weight and being very helpful but just not being shown up on the hps meter. For example, disc priests using lots of shields and spot healing and healers having different roles, like some fights require more raid healing than tank healing so classes with more tools for raid healing might have more hps if more damage needs to be healed, and the difference then is between classes, not skill.

    Sure, in an ideal situation the raid leader should realize that the meters are very important if properly analyzed, but that usually doesn't happen, hence the advent of "Healing meters don't measure skill."

  19. #19

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Post was a bit too long, I got your point after the first paragraph or two but for some reason you decided to keep reiterating the same points.

    Meters aren't the be all and end all, but they're not useless either. If any healer has very low HPS he's probably slacking and yes the meter shows him up here. Being at the top of the meter doesn't necessarily mean they're good though, it's easy to ignore healing assignments and snipe heals on whoever needs it. I've run with such healers in the past so their position on the meter is deceptive.

    I play a feral dps druid, the two meters I look at most are damage done and dps. I usually find I'm pretty high up the damage done list, sometimes top, yet I tend to drop down the dps meter due to my long dots during periods where I cannot attack the boss. For this reason - the dps meter isn't always relavent to me, yet the damage meter is. Obviously there are exceptions, if somebody isn't correctly following tactics, if somebody is fulfilling a role that does not result in maximum dps or if somebody has an unusual buff, then their place on the meter once again is deceptive.

    Another thing to consider is class. Nobody takes an enh shaman to a raid because of their amazing dps. Their dps is acceptable, but the reason to bring an enh shaman is the buffs they provide. Being in 12th on the meter doesn't necessarily mean they're worse than the first 11 players, it often is just a result of their class limitations and you have to consider what else they are contributing to the raid. If meters were all that mattered you'd just bring 17 mages (or whatever class happens to be topping your meters).

    Use meters carefully. Looking at the meter and taking #1 as the best player and #25 as the worst player simply doesn't work.

  20. #20

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratzzz
    Basically, a DPS will always have something to dps (in 99% of the cases anyway) which healers will not. It can be argued that certain players show up low on dps meters because they are doing a particular job (ex. kiting). Of course these players need to be ignored. However, on Anub this is a different matter. A good DPSer will push good dps while kiting the spikes perfectly. He will not do half-arsed on either.
    i disagree

    Dps meters should be taken with a grain of salt here is 2 examples from my last 10 man OS 3 drake zerg

    we had a ret paladin gonna kite with a speed pot. His dps dispite a 5k gs was only 3k due to his around 20 secs of dps time and dpsing the drake is stupid

    we also had a warrior stack sunder armor which is about a 10 sec dps loss and about 3-5 secs to refreah over the 1:20 long fight his dp was 1000 lower than the other warrior with fairly similar gear

    also one more 2 word example: Gluth Kiters

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