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  1. #21

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Worldoflogs and the like are usefull for yourself or for your raid if you have the time to analyse it.

    Ingame links of meters are useless for the most. No real informations are linked, just e-peen.

    Even for dps, for exemple someone who doesn't switch target, or sartha 3D where the dps is really important at some point in the encounter.

    Healing, with different assignments, different class, you can't simply read a meter and see something usefull.

    There is plenty of things to do to look good on meter, a lot of these are detrimental to a raid, it's the reason why some don't allow the use of meter, cause their guildies are not mature enough to play well instead of competing for the top of the meter.

    If, in analysing the data, you find a player who is doing stuff incorrectly, witch assume you know is class AND that you can read and understand the meter, then you can explain to him what to do, that is basicaly the only usefull use of meters.

  2. #22

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joarrak
    unlike with dps where a higher dps almost always means a better dps.
    better 'dps' by the definition of the word(acronym, w/e)? ... yeah, sure i guess

    better player?... not necessarily

    answer this. you have a mage that pulls 8k dps on most 25man fights but say on a fight like thaddius, he's a retard and NEVER crosses to the correct polarization and wipes the raid consistently. then you have mr boomkin who only manages 4k dps but knows the fights and isn't responsible for a single death during the entire raid.

    who do you bring? l33t mage will rock the meters all night long, but i'd prefer someone who knows what they're doing... even if the fight takes a few moments longer, at least we'll all save on repair bills.

    I see this happen a lot on twins. have dude topping out the meters but never switches auras during vortex and dies 2 minutes into the fight... fail.

    dead dps = no dps.

    another point would be that 'damage done' is WAY more important than strictly 'dps'. but do keep in mind, melee often have less uptime to do damage in fights these days, so don't rag on a melee just because a hunter is beating him. Or say on faction champs, you assign a dps to lock down the healer with CC and interrupts... oh no! his dps sucks! BOOT HIM NAO before he embarrasses himself further. /sigh

  3. #23

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    what's wrong with epeen meters ? ???

  4. #24

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Healing meters evaluate a healers performance, if they meters say the healer is a bad healer he gets gkicked. nuff said.

  5. #25

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Meters don't really matter. A great example of misinterpretation was when judgement of light gave a fairly large portion of health and retribution paladins were on the top of the healing meters, thanks to all the melee wailing away at the boss, and i even remember some people complained about that.

    Although that has changed, in my opinion, Meters don't determine how great the healer is, only what that healer was doing, of course that can be misinterpreted as well.

    bottom line, if it's not a wipe, and it's a kill, it's a good deal. Unless you're chasing after those achievements, in which case, make up your own goals from there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Respen
    I was very disappointed in the screenshots. I usually base my entire gaming experience around ground textures and so far it seems like Cata will be totally unplayable.

  6. #26

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    killarth, we're talking about heal - meters here.

    Sure things like special roles aren't specifically shown in pure meters, but when you make a combatlog and upload it to worldoflogs or similar as a raid leader or an officer with knowledge of different classes and some deeper game mechanics you will surely always find some ways to improve ones performance.

    also, kittyaras post sais it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  7. #27

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbt
    Post was a bit too long, I got your point after the first paragraph or two but for some reason you decided to keep reiterating the same points.
    I actually agree, I didn't proofread much and should have. I'd just prefer not to edit all the superfluous stuff out since it's already posted.

    I guess the TL;DR version is this: Healing meters do matter and dismissing them as useless will undermine your argument. Instead you should use the other information provided by meters to contextualize the data.

  8. #28

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by smuggles908
    Healing meters evaluate a healers performance, if they meters say the healer is a bad healer he gets gkicked. nuff said.
    never invite me to one of your raids. i don't think i could handle your amazing knack for judging talent.

  9. #29

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    I actually agree, I didn't proofread much and should have. I'd just prefer not to edit all the superfluous stuff out since it's already posted.

    I guess the TL;DR version is this: Healing meters do matter and dismissing them as useless will undermine your argument. Instead you should use the other information provided by meters to contextualize the data.
    they're not useless, but they also shouldn't be the single metric by which to measure one's value to the raid. same with any sort of meter.

    i think most people here agree with that.

  10. #30

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by smuggles908
    Healing meters evaluate a healers performance, if they meters say the healer is a bad healer he gets gkicked. nuff said.
    Do the rest of your guild a favor and gkick yourself.
    Walking to Mordor. 120.4/6230km
    1RMs: bench-111.1kg, squat-147.4kg, deadlift-158.8kg

  11. #31

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundas
    Intimidating wall of text is intimidating. I'll pass, thanks.
    This.

    And meters are a bi-product of performance, but not the goal one should be seeking.
    I quit the game, and this happens:
    "You can now mount while under the skeleton effect of the Noggenfogger Elixir!"
    Are you effing kidding me?!?!
    ******
    Remember 3.0.......

  12. #32

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Healing meters DO matter, althought they are subject to more grains of salt so to speak than dps meters.

    That said anyone who says pallies cant top charts on twins is retarded.
    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/9480306#healingout from our last Heroic 25m Twins kill.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.* If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.* If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it.* I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't;* I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

  13. #33

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by kittyara
    Worldoflogs and the like are usefull for yourself or for your raid if you have the time to analyse it.

    Ingame links of meters are useless for the most. No real informations are linked, just e-peen.

    Even for dps, for exemple someone who doesn't switch target, or sartha 3D where the dps is really important at some point in the encounter.

    Healing, with different assignments, different class, you can't simply read a meter and see something usefull.

    There is plenty of things to do to look good on meter, a lot of these are detrimental to a raid, it's the reason why some don't allow the use of meter, cause their guildies are not mature enough to play well instead of competing for the top of the meter.

    If, in analysing the data, you find a player who is doing stuff incorrectly, witch assume you know is class AND that you can read and understand the meter, then you can explain to him what to do, that is basicaly the only usefull use of meters.
    I find combat logs to be extremely useful. A few examples:

    -We had a pair of app DKs at one point, one greatly out-geared the other. Meters allowed us to discover two things: the app who came in geared was terrible, doing approximately the same DPS as the app who was poorly geared. Judging by the gear on the geared DK, he had definitely done all the fights we were doing (or had bought his character), but he didn't understand his DPS rotation and failed at improving despite being offered a great deal of help. DPS meters showed him consistently not pulling his weight. That led to him being booted. Meanwhile, the guy who wasn't so geared had meters that showed pretty conclusively that he was doing the exact same thing I was, and so we kept him until his gear improved. Once it did, he was rocking meters. DPS meters cut the wheat from the chaff fairly effectively regarding those two apps.

    -Phase 1 Yogg-Saron, back when we were in Ulduar. Some people were never interrupting the add casts. Using a macro to start and stop DPS meters at the start of phase 2, I was able to get a good picture of who wasn't interrupting.

    -Shaman assigned to tank healing in a ToC 10 hard mode wasn't healing the tank. Meters showed him healing pretty much everyone but the tank in phase 3. Here, meters also created a problem: he insisted he was the best healer in the raid, since he was first on the healing meters (ahead of a Druid and a Discipline Priest if I recall correctly). However, the meters pretty clearly showed the tank went seven or eight seconds without a direct heal.

    Meters are like guns. In the right hands, used the right way, they're very useful, valuable and kind of cool. In the wrong hands, they cause more problems than they're worth.

  14. #34

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Recently there has been a large push from healers to ignore healing meters. The thought is that because encounters and damage taken is dynamic it's a better measure of skill to be able to save a life than it is to top a meter. This ideal is pushed along by several scenarios in which specific healers can directly prevent a death. A Holy Priest with Body and Soul can give a speed boost to players and allow them to escape otherwise inescapable damage. A Discipline Priest on the other hand can apply Power Word: Shield in anticipation of damage and reduce spikes that would be fatal otherwise. However, these individual scenarios do not typically outweigh the overall nature of a fight. Ultimately promoting the idea that meters aren't of consequence hurts the healing community and can lead to dangerous situations for your raids.

    The kind of thinking that encourages the ignorance to meters and other parsing sources has come up frequently in the past since the first damage meters began to pop up. At some point most of you have been involved in some form of drama regarding meters for DPS. Some guilds even forbid the posting of meters. The main objection is that the meters themselves cause drama, but this is completely counter productive. The solution to these types of disputes should never be to limit information, either by dismissing meters, or disallowing them entirely. They should always be resolved by expanding the information so that the situation can be fully understood.

    In the cast of damage meters the best way to do this would be an analysis of raid composition and role assignment. If people are missing key raid buffs, or they've been assigned to do something their class doesn't perform optimally then to some extent user error can be ruled out. Furthermore a subject may actually be doing very well in the overall encounter despite showing up low on meters. A prime example of this is Anub'arak. During phase two your DPS time is highly variable due to being focused, or being able to reach scarabs. So while you may show as being last on DPS you may in fact by near the top on the portions of the fight that do matter. The same concept can be applied to healers, but only if we accept that meters do matter.

    The 'saving lives' argument is flawed. When determining at what healer legitimately saved the most lives the answer is simple. Look at the incoming heals on the tanks and find who healed them the most. Those individuals are the healers who saved the most lives in almost all encounters. Take the tank in questions health and divide the incoming heals from a particular healer by that amount, then multiply by 10, or 25 depending on raid size. They most likely saved that many lives over the course of a fight, because if that tank died then the raid would have wiped entirely. You can subtract 10/25 for each Rebirth, any Soul Stones and any procs from Guardian Spirit, but the limited nature compared to the overwhelming healing won't make a large difference.

    Now compare to raid healers who can be determined in a similar way by looking at individual lives saved by healing. Looking at the players healed individually and assigning value to their life may seem odd, but it's also quite realistic. If an encounter requires your current healer count then each healer is worth 10/25. If and only if you're hitting enrage timers, or other DPS race situations then you can assign DPS value at 10/25 as well. Ultimately what this all implies is that healing meters give a larger overall picture than those wishing to ignore meters understand, or admit.

    Furthermore the promoting of the mentality that meters don't matter misses the mark even more when individual stats are looked into. Most modern meters show not only how much you healed, but how much you overhealed, who you healed, what you healed them with, what incoming damage they took, how players died and so on. Encouraging healers to ignore meters, rather than to fully analyze them is going to hurt new players and hurt raid progress. Being very high, or very low on meters is a good litmus test for who is doing well, or doing poorly.

    Some of the debate stems from the belief that some heals are more important than others. For instance a healer may be high on a meter, but ignored something like Frozen Blows, or didn't heal a Legion Flame target. Those allow a healer who didn't properly know the encounter to slip through. However this can easily be seen when looking at who healed the Legion Flame target, or who healed the PC target, or what group died during Frozen Blows. This does not mean that meters don't matter. Most meters can show deaths now, which can be used to show those priority targets deaths and see who was healing them and compare to who was supposed to be healing them.

    The other argument revolves around removing raid stress. The idea is that somethings is less 'scary' when done a certain way. The flaw here is that something being scary doesn't imply that it's actually harder. There are cases where some utility can be used to prevent unhealable situations. Body and Soul is one of the prime examples, particularly on Anub'arak hard mode. What should be kept in mind however is how many lives are saved by such action. While preventing someone from taking a flame patch on beasts might be nice, it's also not an important event. There are a lot of situations like this where you reduce incoming damage instead of healing, but this must be considered along with the impact healing would have had. Use the flame patch example and look at how much damage was prevented by pre-shielding, or other intervention. Now check the throughput of your raid healers and look at the actual impact of trying to avoid damage in those cases. Often times the easier solution is going to be to heal through the damage rather than to avoid it.

    That leads back to the initial point: What healers need to do is not ignore meters, but to accept them. Accept that raw healing is in fact both a measure of power and skill. Those on the top of meters in general are the best healers at reacting to and dealing with incoming damage. Instead of foolishly denying this in arguments you should provide further information. If a healer does not perform their job, or you are performing better than meters imply then supply adequate defense. Denying evidence is going to hurt you and your raid. Instead give context to that information, or provide additional evidence. Meters provide much more analysis and data than simply who healed the most and if you're trying to convince someone of your worth compared to someone who is healing for much more then you should use that evidence yourself. Ignorance is never the proper solution to these types of problems.

    Healing meters are not something that can be stacked and someone who produced a massive amount of healing most likely is very skilled. Ignoring that is disrespectful to your fellow healers and will ultimately cause damage to any argument you attempt to make. If you are faced with an argument involving meters and you disagree with what they may imply then you need to find evidence that supports it. If a healer producing double your healing was also not healing the right targets, or standing in flames, then find that information. Find who they healed to produce those numbers, find their damage taken, or find something else that proves the point. Dismissing meters is nothing short of ignorance and that has been the case since meters first came out. Leaders and other players who do understand their merit will take the dismissal of those meters as covering for incompetence, or lack of knowledge. Meters do matter, they're just not all that matters.
    hey cool

  15. #35

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    A good read, and I do agree. However something to always consider within a pug is that you may be picking up slack from poor healers so saying, "Oh you aren't healing who you are supposed to be so someone in your group died" isn't always a fair argument. In a properly formed guild this should not be a problem though.

  16. #36

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    If a healer producing double your healing was also not healing the right targets, or standing in flames, then find that information. Find who they healed to produce those numbers, find their damage taken, or find something else that proves the point. Dismissing meters is nothing short of ignorance and that has been the case since meters first came out. Leaders and other players who do understand their merit will take the dismissal of those meters as covering for incompetence, or lack of knowledge. Meters do matter, they're just not all that matters.
    Meter's aren't perfect indicators of skill but they're all we have so broadly I agree with Harky, particularly I like this last paragraph. I'd like to add though that in order to educate people how to read meters we need to develop a better idea of what 'good healing' is.

    I would suggest that perfect healing would involve every raid member spending 100% of the time at 100% health. The closer we can get to that the better we're doing, which is why disc is so potentially valuable, and why the good holy priest in Spiritus' example is doing such a good job.

    I'm almost less bothered by the people who dismiss meters than the people who believe that if the boss dies then it's as good as it gets.

  17. #37

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    The only issue with meters that I have is that... not everyone has the add-on which shows guessed absorbs. And even then, they're guessed.
    I don't know about others, but there are some fights where I'm basically assigned to shield people while using ProM and penance in between(twins on heroic 25m). Disc priests are not often topping the meters, and people misuse such meters to say "lolz u suk". The only time I look at meters is when people begin to die.
    I mean, I was in an Onyxia pug where I did roughly 65% of the healing with two others who were healers. Needless to say, they stood around with their fingers in their noise and decided that I should just do it myself. We wiped when fear came into play. Now, when the two other healers are nearly beaten by the tank in healing done, that's an issue.

    Overall, if the boss dies and there aren't too many casualties, I don't mind.

  18. #38

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    OP is mostly right. I only had a point of contention with:

    Accept that raw healing is in fact both a measure of power and skill. Those on the top of meters in general are the best healers at reacting to and dealing with incoming damage.
    Obviously the underlined portion is the qualifier that makes this statement *technically* true, but you fall into the same mistake many intelligent people do, because you assume that most people think like you. Couldn't be farther from the truth. *Most* people will read that sentence as:

    Those on the top of meters are the best healers.
    Sorry to say, but that's just the way people are. They don't want to hear about qualifiers and context and whatnot. They want a simple answer so they don't have to think dynamically.

    This is why meter-drama starts in the first place. Some raid leader will read the meter this way, the intelligent "underperformer" will make his defense using context and reason, his argument will be rejected, and a lot of finger-pointing/name-calling/etc. ensues.


    Another issue I had with the OP is:

    If you are faced with an argument involving meters and you disagree with what they may imply then you need to find evidence that supports it. If a healer producing double your healing was also not healing the right targets, or standing in flames, then find that information. Find who they healed to produce those numbers, find their damage taken, or find something else that proves the point.
    The main problem with this is that such information may not be available until a full parse of the fight is posted, which can't be in game, and is usually not posted until at least the next day, if at all. However, drama often starts on the spot.

    Some of this information you may look for and never find, even in a full parse. You can't find things like snipe healing, if there's two healers assigned to the same job, especially different class types.

    How do you prove that a healer who healed the "wrong" targets, in addition to the "correct" ones, did so to boost his own numbers and sabotage another's...as opposed to catching the other's slack because he is a poor healer?

    Also, as I brought up previously, there's nothing to say your "evidence" won't be shrugged off or misunderstood.


    As a side note, my Raid runs a fail meter in addition to heal, DPS, dispel, etc. meters. However, usually these are only used after a wipe, and only if someone doesn't fess up to causing it. More often than not, a healer will call out "that was my fault; I was healing raid because I thought the tank was ok", or a tank will call out "woops, I was dumb and stood in that void zone", etc. etc.

    For those not familiar with fail meters, they count the number of times each raid member was affected by *avoidable* major encounter mechanics, such as void zones, ice shards, biting cold, rockets, fires, orbs, etc.

    However, that's my group. We are all comfortable with each other and aren't too proud to admit when we make mistakes or be open to criticism.

    I would say that the majority of *learning* raids aren't necessarily like that, and posting meters publicly does more harm than good.

  19. #39

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Healing meters like dps meters are a tool, and like any tool when used improperly will yield the wrong result or no result. When you know how to use the tool, and use it for its intended useage the results can be very positive.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.* If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.* If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it.* I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't;* I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

  20. #40

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Ultimately promoting the idea that meters aren't of consequence hurts the healing community and can lead to dangerous situations for your raids.
    This is what happens when you have healers that are only worried about the meters:

    1) Healers clip each other (after all its about the meter so why should you work as a team when you can screw someone on the meters).
    2) Healers ignore their assignments (after all if your assignment wasn't taking damage why wouldn't you heal the other persons target its all about the meters).
    3) Healers start fighting with each other about their spot on the meter (dps is a competition and healing is a team sport).

    In short, healers should be working as a team. Meters absolutely do not matter. If you can't keep your targets alive (assuming they don't do something stupid) then you are a bad healer. If you can keep them alive then it doesn't matter where you stand on the meters.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

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