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  1. #61

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    @Arg: You'd be able to see the overhealing in that case and the cross healing by looking at who was overhealed the most by the Druid on those melee overlapping with the high healing done to those targets by the Shaman. This is again what I was getting at, the meters themselves are a good defense against people using meters poorly to show one person as better, or worse. Rather than ignoring the meters and considering them useless it's better to properly evaluate and defend a position so that tools designed to help evaluate raid performance are used efficiently. There are a lot of people who are blatantly saying lately that healing meters do not matter and mean nothing, rather than actually analyzing a situation and using those numbers to help assess possible problems and causes for them.

  2. #62

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Rhaenis i didn't want to say that a "predicting" healer has to be a paladin.

    I quoted from that interview to show the difference between a good and a superb healer (class doesn't matter). And that's a thing no healmeter or heal helping addon like healbot, vuhdo will ever help you with, in the case of meters never show you.

    The mechanics of GCD (1,5sec, 1 sec maybe with full haste/bloodlust etc) always opens a window for another healer to land his heal before my gcd is off.

    To sum everything said here up:

    Yes, meters (good ones like recount/skada in combination with combatlogs on wowmeteronline et al) matter as a good source of solid collected data and mathematics for evaluating people in your raid. But as statistics always need lots of data, one single log / fight ain't enough. So having some raids tracked and then comparing them for one member is a legit way to see and measure his performance. If someone with similar gear always performs lower compaired to others then you will find it in the logs (it could be his casts he uses or does not use, his attendance, the time he lives on each encounter or the times he dies).

    Sure your "heal lands in overheal twice bec. someone else hits his heal 0,01 sec befor yours" is valid and surely happens sometimes, but not in a row all the time spread over many raids.

    So taking the data from different raids can be easily used to get a (sorry i'm german) Gaussian normal distribution of someones playstyle and maybe even his "skill".

    The easiest way is to compare two similar equipped players from the same class.
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  3. #63

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Read the OP, not going to read all the replies...

    While healing meters can be a good thing, and I use them a LOT while healing to try to assess how I did in any given run and see how I might do better next time. You have to know what to look for and how to read them, as well as how other healers work. When retards get Healing Meters, it turns into something Stupid, and people who are trying to inflate their numbers while failing at what actually needs to be healed get glorified with high numbers.

    One example of VERY STUPID and BAD healing meter usage...

    VoA-10 PUG, 3 healers.

    Druid - Top of meters by far
    Shaman - about half of the Druid's healing done
    Disc Priest (me) - a little under Shaman

    At the beginning of the run, we assigned MT, OT and designated that I'll be on the MT and the Shaman/Druid on the OT during Meteor Fists.
    What happened, Every attempt, the OT would die. Neither the MT or OT was receiving healing from the Druid (other than WG). The Druid (which I saw on my meters) was basically keeping WG on constantly, while throwing out the occasional Rejuv.

    Between me Shielding most of the raid before the big AoE, and the Druid keeping WG up constantly to heal the small amounts of damage people DID take, the Shaman had very little chance to actually heal anybody. The Druid's numbers got inflated, even though he failed horribly at assisting the shaman on keeping the OT up.

    The Stupidity?
    The Druid had healing meters too... The Druid saw that HE did FAR MORE healing than the other 2 healers, in fact, he did more healing than the other healers combined!!!
    Before every pull, and after every wipe, he would bitch about how the other healers needed to pick up the healing, and that he was pulling our weight... He never healed the MT, nor healed the OT, Wild Growth does not count since it is AoE...
    I kept my Tank alive every Meteor Fist (except after the OT died), The Shaman worked his ass off to keep the OT up on Meteor Fist, with no help from the Druid...


    THAT is why people have problems with Healing Meters, THAT is why 'healing done' doesn't mean SHIT if you don't heal the right people at the right time...
    I can inflate my healing numbers by taking PW:S off my action bar, and letting the tank die while I flash heal everyone as soon as they take damage, does my higher numbers mean I'm doing better? hell no! I'm being incredibly inefficient and failing at what my spec is made for...

  4. #64

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    In the above situation the Druid was assuming their most common role, while leaving the two tanks to the other two healers present. In this case a Shaman and a Disc Priest, both of which perform better on tanks than Druids. Most likely said Druid was also assuming that the Shaman would easily handle the OT healing. In my opinion the Druid has every right to complain in the situation you described. The Druid's job in that situation should be a few spare HoTs on the tanks and then raid healing. If the Shaman was only a little over you and you were raid healing then you're placing blame in the wrong spot. If you were on MT heals and found time to raid shield as well, then it seems the Druid was correct. He most likely had his hands full bringing up raid health while you were not fully performing your role and the Shaman was apparently incapable of performing his.

    I've healed that fight as a Druid and the typical thing to do is when MF comes up you use WG on cooldown on a tank, possibly a Rejuv and then raid healing. Unless you're two healing that's all you'd really see. Wild Growth on a tank and a bunch of Rejuvs flying around. You said it yourself, you kept your tank up without any issues. What was the problem on the OT? If the Druid wasn't helping you how can he be blamed for the Shaman's incompetence?

    This is a lot of why these types of sentiments are popping up. The information is there, but it's being analyzed improperly. Thinking that someone telling other healers to pick it up might seem arrogant, but keep in mind that if someone healed for that much it means that much damage (or more) was taken to begin with. If a persons job is to heal the raid and make sure everyone is kept up through the various AOEs and the problem becomes tanks dying? You need to look not at the Druid, but the Shaman. Was he just CH spamming through MF?

    In any case with what you're describing, I would side with the Druid and look towards the Shaman to see what he was doing wrong.

  5. #65

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I (tank) use JoL on the boss. I come in third place healing. Did my heals matter? Not at all. All I did was create overheal to the real healers. Meters are a very skewed tool. Heal meters do NOT matter.
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  6. #66

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Nice summary. That's exactly the opposite of what I was trying to say though, just an fyi. :P
    Wouldn't Know, didn't read

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    are you retdad of dreadmaul if so i would just liek to psot knowone raid with this guy he ninjas offspec items...
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  7. #67

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    If you find that I contradict myself I'd appreciate it being pointed out specifically, rather than simply being thrown out as hyperbole before launching into an unrelated post. The closest you came was the misunderstanding that I was explaining that healing meters mean very little, when I said no such thing. I know you greatly enjoy trolling, but please at least make sense and show some comprehension for what is actually being said. The entire argument was about dismissing hard data without showing anything to contextualize that data and how that has been hurting the healing community.

    If you'd like to point out some actual contradictions I'd be happy to elaborate, but upon rereading I was unable to find anything like what you're implying.
    Your post goes a long way to explain why healing meters mean next to nothing and then you insinuate this isn't true... that is about as black and white a contradiction there is.

    My remarks after explain why healing meters are bad 99.9% of the time which is completely relevant... it's called forming an opinion and I back that opinion up with reasonable arguments. I was unaware the term 'trolling' had changed, perhaps you should look the term up so you understand how to use it appropriately.

  8. #68

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    You should probably reread without your blinders on then. I stated unequivocally several times that they do in fact matter. I went into depth to try and point out better ways to give context to that information, not to imply that the information itself meant nothing. There's a pretty large distinction there. I understand not wanting to do more than skim and that it's easy to read your point of view into things, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. The point was that meters are important and if you really are doing your job then those same meters and the associated meters should be used to prove your case. I've read through a few times and can't find a single remark in the original post that implies that healing meters mean next to nothing. That's not too surprising though considering I wrote it and I don't feel that way at all.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    They do matter, but in such a more complicated way compared to DPS meters.

    The first example that comes in mind is:

    Take Valkyrs HC, during relatively low damage, and during switch colors/balls getting past the soakers and hitting the raid.
    In the first case, it's low, irrilevant damage, but can still be healed for 500k by A, and 100k by B. When the second case comes, B heals 400k, and A heals 100k.

    Overall, A healed more, but B did a better job by a long way, because he beated the crap out of A when it came to healing massive amount of dangerous damage.

  10. #70

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    I always watch my own Damage meter to make sure I'm pulling my weight. Officers usually use it to find out who is sucking or needs to improve.

    Let's say you're on Anub 25 hard mode. You almost get him into Phase 3 many times, but each time you just manage to fail.

    The raid leader takes a look at the DPS meters and sees that the Shaman, for whatever reason, is consistently pulling well below 5K, while everyone else is either at or above 5 or 6K.


    In the end, I've honestly gotten a little tired of the MMO way of doing things, to be quite honest. It's been a LONG time since I've picked up any RPG besides WoW, and after playing nearly my 60th hour of Dragon Age, I suddenly started to remember that WoW has a very poor system.

    In Dragon Age, you don't NEED a tank, healer dps combo of a team... I mean.... what a strange concept... it's almost like.... like...

    the way RPGs used to be...

    God I miss D&D.

    80 Kingslayer Shadow Priest - Spirestone
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  11. #71

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    healing meters is fail
    To play those millions of minds,to watch them slowly respond to an unseen stimulus to guide theyr aspiration without theyr knowledge-all this whether in high capacities or in humble,is a big and endless game of chess of ever extraordinary excitement
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  12. #72

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Ultimately promoting the idea that meters aren't of consequence hurts the healing community and can lead to dangerous situations for your raids.
    It's not that Healing meters don't mean anything, it's just that the majority of the community takes the absolute numbers they see and judge people by that...can't do that.

    Like how people say Druid healers are OP based ONLY on the number next to their name on Recount. Another healer in that same raid could have done 2/3's the healing and "contributed" just as much to the raid. That's where I see the flaw in the system, but still that's not to say they should be completely ignored.

    People go, "Oh wow he's the best" or "Oh wow that guys sucks" based purely off of the place they are in on the meter and the number next to his name. There are WAY too many variables for that to be a real measure.

    Healing meters matter, just not in the way most people think they do, the majority of the player base just doesn't know how to use them...hence my signature.

    Now, I'm not that naive, of course I realize their usefulness. But like in the case of a Discipline Priest, the meters can't fully quantify how much one contributes to a raid and that definitely says something about the meters.

    My bottom line...They aren't perfect and they aren't the end all be all of who's the best healer by looking at them, but they shouldn't be ignored completely either. Know what I mean harky?

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  13. #73

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by G l o w y r m
    It's not that Healing meters don't mean anything, it's just that the majority of the community takes the absolute numbers they see and judge people by that...can't do that.

    People go, "Oh wow he's the best" or "Oh wow that guys sucks" based purely off of the place they are in on the meter and the number next to his name. There are WAY too many variables for that to be a real measure.

    Healing meters matter, the majority of the player base just doesn't know how to use them, hence my signature. I'm not that naive, of course I realize their usefulness.
    well, recount does count effective healing, so the person who did the most healing according to recount is the person who offset the most damage

    i know raid healing vs tank healing vs whatever matters, most competent people do, but when you see a MT paladin doing 6000hps and the raid healer is doing 2000hps, you know the raid healer probably isn't pulling his weight

    i think skada counts overhealing too and doesn't account for it

  14. #74

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    and just like every other tool there is, if you don't know how to use it, it does you no good

    healing meters are pretty accurate and DO matter.

    there is a certain amount of slack that has to be taken up by healers, undergeared tank means healer has to take up more slack, raid healer underhealing then MT may have to toss a flash heal or flash of light, etc

    if everyone is doing their job, then everyone has a nice, comfy role to fill and things always go smoothly

    if one person is having to take up another's slack, then you run the risk of his one mistake causing a wipe even though he's going above and beyond the call of duty

  15. #75

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    @Arg: You'd be able to see the overhealing in that case and the cross healing by looking at who was overhealed the most by the Druid on those melee overlapping with the high healing done to those targets by the Shaman. This is again what I was getting at, the meters themselves are a good defense against people using meters poorly to show one person as better, or worse. Rather than ignoring the meters and considering them useless it's better to properly evaluate and defend a position so that tools designed to help evaluate raid performance are used efficiently. There are a lot of people who are blatantly saying lately that healing meters do not matter and mean nothing, rather than actually analyzing a situation and using those numbers to help assess possible problems and causes for them.
    True that. You need to be able to "read" the meters, means you need to take into consideration class mechanics, healing assignments, group composition and finally the encounter mechanics to be able to evaluate the performance of your healers. Raw healing power means nothing if you won't compare it with the above factors.

  16. #76

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by arg
    True that. You need to be able to "read" the meters, means you need to take into consideration class mechanics, healing assignments, group composition and finally the encounter mechanics to be able to evaluate the performance of your healers. Raw healing power means nothing if you won't compare it with the above factors.
    Exactly, people don't know how to read the meters, they just look at absolute numbers next to the names and the order they are in (which is what my signature refers to, not the idea of meters itself). #3 on the list could very well have been the reason why the raid killed that boss.

    The part I made bold is the most important to me since I'm Discipline. I know that even though I'm not on the top, my contribution to the raid could easily be worth way more than the #1's raw healing. I feel I can make many examples where people with high healing aren't the most "skilled".

    Someone could have more raw healing but let their target drop to 2% HP 15 times over the course of the fight. That's 15 times that they could have wiped. Another healer might have healed his target for a little less but kept him completely safe the entire time and was never in danger of dying which usually causes a wipe in hard modes. I would say the latter is the more skilled healer. The variables on why the latter healed "a little less" can be many, but still he will be labeled as the 2nd best when everyone looks at recount and wrongly judges people based purely and solely off of raw healing.

    Then there's the healer who takes extreme amounts of damage but because of that he's able to cast more since he's not moving around. He soaked up mana of other healers and/or "padded" his own meter, and he'll come out on top, but could have easily caused a wipe on a hard mode fight.

    There's just way too many variables to actually put ALL of the information "in context", like you say, EVERY TIME with complete accuracy.

    The meters do mean something, just not in the way most people think they do, the raw numbers next to peoples names really don't show who's better on their own. Mostly (but not only) it shows how well they are doing in relation to how well they can do.

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  17. #77
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    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    To people saying that healing meters are useless, how do you diagnose problems in the midst of hardmode encounters? Do you have people quickly log out and run log parses? Do you think that people just look at the meters and go "Hey, #1 guy, good job. Hey, #5 guy, you need to pick it up or you'll get kicked."? When we're wiping on a difficult encounter, we take into account who is dying, who isn't, who is assigned to do what, and the meters can give us an idea of where we can spare some healing or maybe if someone can do something a little bit different.

    Similarly, I don't think that competition between healers is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, if it leads to healers sniping eachother, then it's bad. Since I'm disciplined enough not to deliberately clip other people's heals, I find it helps me perform a little better because then I have a goal. And if I do win the meters, I don't brag about it or go posting meters either. I'll occasionally mention "Hey cool, I got X HPS on that fight." but I'm also just as likely to comment "Hey, good job so-and-so on hitting X HPS/DPS."

    Beyond that, the thing I think I use it most for is looking at my own performance and spell selection. Maybe I can increase my performance by using some spells more often. Maybe if I'm using certain spells more or less than I think I am, I can adjust my spec to help. If we're working on a new encounter and can't get any extra healing and I'm falling behind on my assignments, it's helpful to see what spells are effective and what spells aren't.

    So, again, meters are a tool for analyzing performance. If you treat it like the end-all-be-all of performance, then it's about as useful of an add-on for determining skill as using gearscore to evaluate new apps to your guild. On the other hand, if you look beyond just the rankings and put the numbers in context, it can be useful for troubleshooting healing problems and improving individual performance. The problem is, the tool is available to everyone and a non-insignifant portion of those people have no idea how to make effective use of it. In the hands of those people who don't know how to use it, it's not only useless but potentially worse than nothing; but in the right hands it's a valuable tool.

  18. #78
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Damager/Healing Meters are vary useful TOOL, the same as a wrench or screwdriver. The same way a mechanic will use his tools to fix a car. I will use my tools to track down and find problems with my raids.

    Damage meters in game and quickly show you information like "what killed the <player>", "What <player> is hitting the sparks" (XT-HM) and "Witch <healer> is healing outside his assigment". All simple questions for more in depth annalysis you should use WWS/WoW Meters.

    Example...

    We had a paladin healing who preformed adequately for all our content. But always preformed a little lower on many fights, we got in to Yogg and his healing output dropped quite a bit. Many other healers complained and we ended up pulling him from the raid for part of the night and replacing him with a Paladin that had higher healing (in the meters). He was not happy but could not offer adequately explanation to why his healing output was so much lower then we had expected from him.

    The raid progressed in to what can only be described as a horrible night we went from making it in to P3 reliably to barley making it in to P3 part of the time with many wipes in P2 do to people simply not having manna/missing portals/ect. After half a night of this we pulled the Paladin we had brought in to replace him and went back to making it in to P3 reliably.

    Why, how can a healer have such a huge impact on the raid? Dispels, he had what can only be described as a compulsion to dispel. Ironically this is something that got him in trouble many times in Naxx (Grob). After reviewing the logs for that night he accounted for close to 90% of the raid wide dispels for the night, including the attempts he was sitting.

    As a result we spoke with the other healers and got them to be more proactive with dispels and we downed him that week and the paladins healing improved greatly. Meters may not show you everything but they show a lot and can help you pinpoint problems with healing as well as damage.

    Meters matter...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlor
    Deleted half the thread and gave someone a well deserved ban.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, this forum is NOT grammar school, this forum IS a gaming community. We ask everyone to post in their best-as-possible English.

    We do NOT want to see people getting bashed for poor English writing skills. I read the OP's post and I understood him perfectly fine if I put some effort into it. If you are unwilling to put effort into reading a post, please don't put effort in writing your unwanted opinion about it's grammar/spelling/choice of words.

  19. #79

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    i have mixed feelings about meters

    i have pugged with healers that brag about thier 5k healing in toc 25 then i look at thier overhealing and its 65%...soooo its not really effective healing...

    same scenario with dps...personally on my lock, i haver been 4th or 5th in OVERALL damage but 10th in dps.

    so in that respect all meters to is /strokepeenimsogood

    the good thing about them is they gauge who is actually failing as well. in some raids i have seen people in full tier 8.5 gear pulling <2k dps 25 raid buffed...soo it serves some good for us to weed out baddies

  20. #80

    Re: Matters with Meters; Do Meters Matter?

    Meters are only useful when used correctly.

    When used incorrectly, they cause many more problems than they solve; and it seems the majority of people use them incorrectly.

    A meter that only gives an aggregate score for the average at the end of an encounter really isn't all that useful, as is one that only displays one kind of information at a time. It doesn't show how the particular person being measured reacted to different things during the encounter.

    I run recount during raids, but 9 times out of 10 it's just to keep an eye on the overall raid dps, what killed tanks, and whether people are dispelling.

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