1. #1

    Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Ok, here's the story.
    While playing as retribution and holy, I've been gathering a bunch of offset tank pieces, emblem pieces and what I could find here and there, put together a set, got defense capped and reached somewhat decent avoidance.
    I finally decided to try it out, respecced protection and tanked TotC10 full run with no wipes (I was OT, MT guided me on VT). Basically I have 35k hp unbuffed and my gear is decent.

    My question is this:
    - What is the importance ranking of stats? I was fortunate enough to win a couple of very nice items in a pug later on, but my block rating decreased drastically. I'm still def capped of course, but now I'm thinking, what's the use of block value if my block rating is low?
    - Should I try to gem for higher block rating or just keep gemming for stamina?
    - Also, any feedback on my talents would be cool - I had 5mins to respec, so I kinda just hurled some talents in there.


    My armory profile is: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...stmane&n=Alorn (it may not be updated just yet, respecced earlier today)
    My current spec is: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZE0tA0ugMsIufdg

    Thanks in advance, any help would be awesome.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Block rating is pretty much at the bottom of the pile when it comes to stat priorities, since the amount of actual avoidance (dodge, parry and miss) from tier nine gear is generally high enough that you'll be close, if not at, "unhittable" with Holy Shield and whatever block chance you have from defense. You can't actually gem for block rating - you'd have to gem for defense - but it's not worth doing; keep gemming for stamina, or agility/stamina in red sockets with decent stamina bonuses.

    As for spec, this seems to be what most people use. You can move one of the points out of Improved Judgements to either Improved Blessing of Might or Benediction if you want to, but it really makes no difference; Improved Judgements is better if you PvP in Protection spec, since you won't be using your full 969 rotation.

  3. #3

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Block rating is pretty much a useless stat for you to concern yourself with one exception: building an unhittable set for solo tanking Anub's adds in ToGC.

    Your Block Value is not just a mitigation stat. It is a major factor for your Shield of the Righteous ability. More BV = more threat. However, there's no need to worry about gemming for it because you'll get plenty of BV from gear. Your primary gemming choices should simply be stam or agility/stam if the socket bonus is actually worth it.

    As for spec, 0/53/18 is probably the most common spec. Yours is with a couple changes is also very good. Drop all 5 points out of divinity. It sounds good, but it's really a worthless talent as a tank since you'll be spam healed/over healed anyway. Also drop the 2 points from benediction. Mana management for a tankadin is very easy without a single point in that talent. You could even drop one from spiritual attunement if you want. You definately want to add all 3 points to 1H weap spec. For the remaining points, put 1 in Imp Judgements and the last 3 in Heart of the Crusader.

  4. #4

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    - What is the importance ranking of stats? I was fortunate enough to win a couple of very nice items in a pug later on, but my block rating decreased drastically. I'm still def capped of course, but now I'm thinking, what's the use of block value if my block rating is low?
    Roughly along the lines of Stamina > Armour > Avoidance > Expertise > Block > Block Value. Something similar anyway.

    - Should I try to gem for higher block rating or just keep gemming for stamina?
    Stamina out of your ears! If you want to match sockets, then use
    Blue: +Stam
    Red: +Agi/Stam
    Yellow: +Def/Stam

    Otherwise, Stamina every socket, and use a single Agi/Stam to activate your meta.

  5. #5

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Thanks for the replies everyone, this has been most helpful. Still need a bit of tweaking, but I feel that my tank setup is coming along nicely with the advice you've given me

    Cheers!

  6. #6

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    hmm i've been gemming dodge/stam instead of agi. Is agi a lot better?

  7. #7

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumael
    hmm i've been gemming dodge/stam instead of agi. Is agi a lot better?
    Depends on your gear level, the more dodge you have, the better agi gets compared to dodge. The reason Agi is usually considered to be better is because it only gives slightly less dodge than dodge rating does, but it also adds armor and crit, which makes it more preferable as soon as dodge gets struck by diminishing returns.


  8. #8
    Brewmaster Biernot's Avatar
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    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Some notes on this spec:
    - forget Reckoning. It has been proven that it sucks for damage/threat. Move the points to Divine Guardian and One-Handed Specialization.
    - Benediction as a tank? I don't think so. Move 1 point to Improved Judgements (needed for your 96969 rotation), the other one is more or less free.

    I had the same spec for some time (with the changes i mentioned above), but i switched to 0/53/18. You will lose Divinity, Seals of the Pure and 1 point in Spiritual Attunement, but you gain:
    - Vindication, which is equal to a passive full talented demo shout.
    - Pursuit of Justice
    - The threat through Crusade will make up for the loss of Seals of the Pure on single target tanking, and is better on multi targets.
    Why do something simple, when there is a complicated way?
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  9. #9

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Respecced and everything is going great with the tank spec. However, a new problem has presented itself now.

    I'm looking at upgrading my shoulders with emblems of triumph. Either I purchase tier9 shoulders or the iLvl245 ones from vendor as well. iLvl 245 has much higher str, higher sta, better avoidance in general while t9 has lower str, somewhat higher sta, avoidance and expertise + the chance of, in time, obtaining t9 4-set bonus (reduced forbearance/lower CD on HoP). Both has a socket, t9 = red, iLvl245 = blue.

    With my current items and glyphs I'm already expertise capped with SoV and since I have judgement helm from Onyxia25, I'm not looking to change that into t9 helm from triumph vendor.

    Any advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated!

  10. #10

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    First of all, more expertise over the soft cap is actually pretty good for tanks due to mobs having more parry than dodge.
    If they parry a attack they gain parryhaste and thus you get more damage, so getting expertise over 25 is not a bad thing at all.

    However, I personally do not feel the need to sacrifice 2 BiS items for 2 tier pieces (this is before ToGC25 where the beasts chest is even better than the t9, gloves always stay BiS) just for the set bonus.
    The ony helm, legplates of feverish dedication and the badge shoulders are all just better than the t9 equivalent.

  11. #11

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    First of all, more expertise over the soft cap is actually pretty good for tanks due to mobs having more parry than dodge.
    If they parry a attack they gain parryhaste and thus you get more damage, so getting expertise over 25 is not a bad thing at all.

    However, I personally do not feel the need to sacrifice 2 BiS items for 2 tier pieces (this is before ToGC25 where the beasts chest is even better than the t9, gloves always stay BiS) just for the set bonus.
    The ony helm, legplates of feverish dedication and the badge shoulders are all just better than the t9 equivalent.
    They actually removed Parry-haste where it matters

  12. #12

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Unfortunately, armor is the quickest to diminish, and to hit the 75% reduction cap, i believe you need around 33K armor. With that said, the better the item is, the more likely it'll be to have more armor (E.G. T8 > T9). The best order for gearing as a prot pala currently would be something like this;

    Stamina > Avoidance > Armor + Hit > Block > Expertise > Block Value
    Armor really shouldn't be included in the order of importance because it isn't stackable. Short of switching your ring and neck items to versions with AC, armor only realistically increases with iLVL. This changes up a bit in ICC but I wouldn't bother with it for now.

    Additionally, a paladin tank should never worry about their hit rating under any circumstances. It's weaker for threat then both strength and BV to the BV cap and does nothing for mitigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Incorrect. Parry Haste has only been removed from a single mob in TotC or TotGC: Gormok. Icehowl can still parry haste, as can the twins, and any other mob in there. The only reason it was removed from Gormok is because a parry-hastened couple of attacks, along with an impale hit, can kill a tank, regardless of how good they are.
    And Gormok is the only fight where parry-haste is a concern because:
    A) There are multiple tanks in front of the mob.
    B) Gormok is the only boss in ToC that can realistically put out a 60k+ spike from a parry haste.

    In any other fight, you are the only person standing in front of the mobs, generating less parries then any other tank class before expertise is even considered (and even less afterward). If parry-haste was a legitimate concern for paladins on those fights, other tanks would be leagues behind. I can't stress enough that expertise only reduces tank damage on fights where tank damage is not a concern. Even then (as you already pointed out) dodge or parry would do the job better.

  13. #13

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Unfortunately, armor is the quickest to diminish, and to hit the 75% reduction cap, i believe you need around 33K armor. With that said, the better the item is, the more likely it'll be to have more armor (E.G. T8 > T9). The best order for gearing as a prot pala currently would be something like this;
    Aw comeon!

    33k armor will only make a factor of 3, you need a factor of 4 to reach the armor cap => 50k armor, which is nothing to worry about.

    And no it doesn't diminish that fast, it is always as good as stamina (against physical damage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    Armor really shouldn't be included in the order of importance because it isn't stackable. Short of switching your ring and neck items to versions with AC, armor only realistically increases with iLVL. This changes up a bit in ICC but I wouldn't bother with it for now.
    Still the rings + necks are by far the best EH items you can get.

    The armor trinket vs Satrina's Scarab is something to think about, but in the cases, where you really need EH (An00b stun or Icehowl stun) the stamina trinket will usually be _slightly better if you get 0 heal in the meantime.

  14. #14

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    I disagree with offhand on the statement that Gormok is the only boss where parry-haste is a concern.
    Icehowl can throw around some pretty weird burst damage if he parries a attack right after the head butt.
    Same goes with twins with several orbs exploding and some pain spike stacking.

    I mean expertise is not gem worthy by any means, however it should not be neglected as a whole...


    As for the armor debate. I always valued the emblem ring and heroic band of the twin valkyr BiS due to the big chunk of armor on both. Now I see more and more people favoring the 258 band of the traitor king.
    I mean that's a chunk of armor you're giving up for a little bit more avoidance....

  15. #15

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Additionally, a paladin tank should never worry about their hit rating under any circumstances. It's weaker for threat then both strength and BV to the BV cap and does nothing for mitigation.
    I wouldn't say its nothing to worry about, but its definately nothing to gem/enchant for. For example, a tank with 0 hit, and is not glyphed for 8% taunt hit chance, then your more likely to miss a taunt on Gormok, although in most fights this is not the beallandendall, however it can pose problems for some. although i admit, a tank with 0 hit, should not be tanking ToC :P.

    Hit comes from your gear and gear only. NEVER gem or enchant for it. Myself, i changed the glyph out and use titanium weapon chain, call me fail for TWC, but Peacekeeper blade is not worth the costs of enchants on my server. Can't wait to get Quel'serrar or Crusaders glory tbh.

    With gear that good enough for ToC, you should naturally have the hit rating.



    I would say the stat prioritisation would be more as follows:

    Stamina; Avoidance, Expertise/Block; Block/Expertise; BV.

    Expertise and block are pretty much on par with eachother. Getting Expertise soft capped is helpful. Block will not be very useful again until ICC imo, but some block is better than none. As others have said, unless your the Anub 25 heroic tanking for the ads, your not going to get much out of Block (compared to the rest of the stats).

    I do not include Armour and hit, simply because armour comes passively with gear, and if your gear is good enough for ToC, your armour will most definately be on par for it aswell. Hit, as explained above, will come with your gear (Especially Ony helm, uber hit on that thing :P). So neither of these need to be worried about.
    Retards should not be aided. They should just be pointed toward the coldest pole on which to stick their tongue.
    A Balance Druid who has balanced the Balance in his Balance Spec between Crit and Haste is a Balanced Balance Druid.
    80 Druid (exBC toon), 80 Mage (Arcane), 80 DK (lol), 80 Hunter (MM), 80 Pally(prot/ret), 61 Rogue (Ass/Subt), 80 Lock (Demo/Affli), 23 Warr (Prot/fury hybrid).
    Pally - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Nikoli.
    Hunter - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Grubba

  16. #16

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by bawkbawkboom
    Stamina; Avoidance, Expertise/Block; Block/Expertise; BV.
    Just hafta say that this really depends on the encounter you're doing:

    Heavy+Unmitigatable damage (Steelbreaker) : Stamina > Armor > Avoidance > Rest.
    Heavy+mainly physical (Icehowl) : Stamina=Armor > Avoidance > Rest.
    Fast Hitters (Twins, Algalon): Armor > BV/Avoidance > Stamina > Rest.
    Extremely fast hitters (An00b adds): Avoidance (til cap) > Block Rating (til cap) > BV > Armor > Str > Stamina.

    Hit and Expertise should not be looked at, but against bosses, where threat or taunts matter you might want to consider to have a decent amount of Hit, and according to Maintankadin Expertise is just about as good as dodge to prevent insta gibs (too bad that most insta gibs are unavoidable or include a stun anyway.)

  17. #17

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo
    Just hafta say that this really depends on the encounter you're doing:

    Heavy+Unmitigatable damage (Steelbreaker) : Stamina > Armor > Avoidance > Rest.
    Heavy+mainly physical (Icehowl) : Stamina=Armor > Avoidance > Rest.
    Fast Hitters (Twins, Algalon): Armor > BV/Avoidance > Stamina > Rest.
    Extremely fast hitters (An00b adds): Avoidance (til cap) > Block Rating (til cap) > BV > Armor > Str > Stamina.

    Hit and Expertise should not be looked at, but against bosses, where threat or taunts matter you might want to consider to have a decent amount of Hit, and according to Maintankadin Expertise is just about as good as dodge to prevent insta gibs (too bad that most insta gibs are unavoidable or include a stun anyway.)
    I completely agree, however I myself, wasn't giving a boss by boss dicription. More an overview of the majority of fights. Again, Armour does not need to be considered a stat to worry about, if your gear is worthy of the content your tanking in, then so will your Armour.
    Every tank, every stat has a 'situational factor'.

    Probably a typo, but lol....
    where threat or taunts matter
    Threat always, ALWAYS matters :P.

    Seeing as the majority do not partake in tanking Anub25hc or algalon, I gave a general overview of what imo is a good way to prioritise your stats =)

    However, you are completely corect with your adition to my post, Nillo =).

    Bawk
    Retards should not be aided. They should just be pointed toward the coldest pole on which to stick their tongue.
    A Balance Druid who has balanced the Balance in his Balance Spec between Crit and Haste is a Balanced Balance Druid.
    80 Druid (exBC toon), 80 Mage (Arcane), 80 DK (lol), 80 Hunter (MM), 80 Pally(prot/ret), 61 Rogue (Ass/Subt), 80 Lock (Demo/Affli), 23 Warr (Prot/fury hybrid).
    Pally - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Nikoli.
    Hunter - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Grubba

  18. #18

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    I disagree with offhand on the statement that Gormok is the only boss where parry-haste is a concern.
    Icehowl can throw around some pretty weird burst damage if he parries a attack right after the head butt.
    Please explain, how you are able to attack Icehowl while stunned and cause parries. No, the only way for Icehowl's parry-haste to be an issue is if someone else is in front of the mob and attacking after he stuns you. That doesn't mean your expertise skill has saved you, it means someone else has failed rule one and two of melee dps (1: Don't die or do anything to endanger the raid, 2: Attack from behind the boss unless mechanics require otherwise).

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Same goes with twins with several orbs exploding and some pain spike stacking.
    Once again, this is preventable damage that requires intelligence on the part of you and your raid. Do not be afraid to sidestep opposite color balls. You can maneuver the twins enough to not take many of the AoE explosions. Positioning opposite essence healers around the raid as soakers help tremendously as well. There are only two moments when tank damage is an issue for you in this fight. The first is vortex, which obviously has nothing to do with parry-hasting and you line up shield wall for it. The second is Twin Pack on the other Val'kyr, which can be minimized by lining up trinket cooldowns (Heart of Iron / Seal of Llane on uses at the same time work wonders here).

  19. #19

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by bawkbawkboom
    I completely agree, however I myself, wasn't giving a boss by boss dicription. More an overview of the majority of fights. Again, Armour does not need to be considered a stat to worry about, if your gear is worthy of the content your tanking in, then so will your Armour.
    Every tank, every stat has a 'situational factor'.
    If you only see armor as the base armor that you find on items, that is correct, but there are also Rings/Necks/Trinkets/Weapons with armor on them that you might want to compare to items with no armor on them.

    Examples would be:
    TotGC(10) Anub sword -> definetely BiS for EH and mitigation (-> Boss Type 2/3 in my example)
    Twin Valkyr(10) Ring and (25) neck -> again best Rings for EH/Mitigation.
    Emblem of Triumph Armor Trinket, better than Yogg(10) stamina trinket at least imo and usually better than 2* Satrina's Scarab (due to the use effects being total crap).




  20. #20

    Re: Protection paladin - need a bit of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo
    If you only see armor as the base armor that you find on items, that is correct, but there are also Rings/Necks/Trinkets/Weapons with armor on them that you might want to compare to items with no armor on them.

    Examples would be:
    TotGC(10) Anub sword -> definetely BiS for EH and mitigation (-> Boss Type 2/3 in my example)
    Twin Valkyr(10) Ring and (25) neck -> again best Rings for EH/Mitigation.
    Emblem of Triumph Armor Trinket, better than Yogg(10) stamina trinket at least imo and usually better than 2* Satrina's Scarab (due to the use effects being total crap).
    Point taken =)
    Retards should not be aided. They should just be pointed toward the coldest pole on which to stick their tongue.
    A Balance Druid who has balanced the Balance in his Balance Spec between Crit and Haste is a Balanced Balance Druid.
    80 Druid (exBC toon), 80 Mage (Arcane), 80 DK (lol), 80 Hunter (MM), 80 Pally(prot/ret), 61 Rogue (Ass/Subt), 80 Lock (Demo/Affli), 23 Warr (Prot/fury hybrid).
    Pally - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Nikoli.
    Hunter - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Grubba

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