SW:P & Haste

[Myzrael]

keep mangle up

Or have arms warrior in raid

[Myzrael]

Seriously dude... if there are 4 targets MS is by far the most superior DPS spell. If it's under 4 targets and they have enough health to live through full duration dots you multi dot...

At least on Anub'arak Heroic dotting 4 adds then mind sear spamming provides more damage than only MS spamming, I've tried it both.

[Worshaka]

c'mon dude - we're talking dots here, what does dps mean? Damage per cast time is the relevant measure, so you still haven't dismissed his point. I'm not sure which of you is right, but you're certainly making your case very badly.

Not it isn't... first it's incredibly unlikely you get full duration of the DoT to begin with, assessing the damage in terms of DPE is only correct in the highly unlikely situation the mobs are alive for exactly 15 seconds or 21 seconds (with 2pc T9), I guarantee that 99.9% of the time this isn't the case.

The other issue being that VT information pulled to arrive at the figures posted assumes full raid debuffs, this will never the be the case on adds, VT will do substantially less damage to an add target than what you pull out of any combat log/parse. The MS information posted is about right for a non debuffed target however, so there is another inconsistency.

[Azyoulike]

Not it isn't... first it's incredibly unlikely you get full duration of the DoT to begin with, assessing the damage in terms of DPE is only correct in the highly unlikely situation the mobs are alive for exactly 15 seconds or 21 seconds (with 2pc T9), I guarantee that 99.9% of the time this isn't the case.

It doesn't have to be exact, Berner is stipulating that he's only dotting once so he only needs to assume that they live longer than 15 seconds (or 21). He stated in his post quite clearly that he was talking of cases where the mobs would be sure to live for the full duration of VT.

The other issue being that VT information pulled to arrive at the figures posted assumes full raid debuffs, this will never the be the case on adds, VT will do substantially less damage to an add target than what you pull out of any combat log/parse. The MS information posted is about right for a non debuffed target however, so there is another inconsistency.

Since unholy is the current best DK spec the 13% bonus damage is likely to be present on adds, since they can apply it to multiple targets so easily. You will likely only be missing the 5% crit debuff. (The spell-hit debuff is obviously irrelevant for adds.)

Consider the top anub-hard spriest parse from wowmeteronline.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...0537#damageout

There are 3 unholy DKs present, so I think we can safely assume a high uptime on ebon plague for all the adds.

The priest's MS is ticking for average 2.88k and VT for avg 3.95k - so even assuming that 100% of the VT ticks are on the boss (and it's easy to see that's not so), losing 5% crit would put it down to a 3.8k tick, so broadly in agreement with the numbers already posted.

Even if both debuffs were missing though, he'd still be correct given his assumption that the mob life is certain to exceed the dot life. since the differential in damage done was way over 18%.

[Shad47]

This will never end....

[Liskadi]

And it is totally out of topic.

>>>>>>>> SW:P & Haste <<<<<<<<

That's the topic.

[Lostprophet]

In the Anub encounter those 4 Adds have first to get near Anub, That means! that you can DoT them all before they even reach the Tanks.. so u can directly spamming MS when theyre in Range.

[Worshaka]

It doesn't have to be exact, Berner is stipulating that he's only dotting once so he only needs to assume that they live longer than 15 seconds (or 21). He stated in his post quite clearly that he was talking of cases where the mobs would be sure to live for the full duration of VT.

Since unholy is the current best DK spec the 13% bonus damage is likely to be present on adds, since they can apply it to multiple targets so easily. You will likely only be missing the 5% crit debuff. (The spell-hit debuff is obviously irrelevant for adds.)

Consider the top anub-hard spriest parse from wowmeteronline.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...0537#damageout

There are 3 unholy DKs present, so I think we can safely assume a high uptime on ebon plague for all the adds.

The priest's MS is ticking for average 2.88k and VT for avg 3.95k - so even assuming that 100% of the VT ticks are on the boss (and it's easy to see that's not so), losing 5% crit would put it down to a 3.8k tick, so broadly in agreement with the numbers already posted.

Even if both debuffs were missing though, he'd still be correct given his assumption that the mob life is certain to exceed the dot life. since the differential in damage done was way over 18%.

With my gear, self buffed with full stacks of SW and full trinket stacks can get VT to tick for 2070 damage on average. You can probably factor in flametongue totem, bit of extra SP from Kings, but you won't get debuffs like 13% magic damage and 5% crit on adds. You may be lucky and have an unholy DK but generally speaking the average raid doesn't enjoy that luxury considering they all seem to want to play frost or blood.

VT would tick for around 2200 damage and factoring in a crit rate of 40% would deal 3080 damage on average, this is radically lower than the estimated 3800 damage that was suggested initially.

MS hits for 1830 with my self buffs only, again if you add in passive buffs you can guarantee getting it will deal at least 2000, probably more but i'll keep the number modest. Factoring in a 38% crit (due to 2% less from Mind Melt) this deals an average 2760 per tick.

You can fit 1.2 Mind Sears into the space of 4 global cooldowns, this means you can get 7 ticks of MS in the same time it tacks to initially cast VT four times.

No 2pc T9

VT will do a total of 61,600 damage vs 57960 for MS, that means if you miss 2 ticks of VT out of the 20, you are behind.

2pc T9

VT will do a total of 86,240 damage vs 57960 for MS, that means if you miss 10 ticks of VT over the 28 you are behind.

Obviously 2pc T9 makes it a bit more viable but in the vast majority of instances, if there are 4 adds up the likely hood they will last for 21 seconds + 4 GCDs = 25 seconds is extremely unlikely. All it takes is for the raid to focus on of those adds and have it die early b4 its very dodgy if you were better off.

I guarantee you in a vast majority of practical circumstances you are better off simply casting MS.

footnote... data comes from me running some recount parses on level 80 training dummies, adds usually speaking are not level 83.

[Azyoulike]

You may be lucky and have an unholy DK but generally speaking the average raid doesn't enjoy that luxury considering they all seem to want to play frost or blood.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c.../dkt/8/0/3/320

The preponderance of top DK dps figures are from unholy. I'd say assuming an unholy DK is entirely reasonable in a hard-mode guild.

VT would tick for around 2200 damage and factoring in a crit rate of 40% would deal 3080 damage on average, this is radically lower than the estimated 3800 damage that was suggested initially.

MS hits for 1830 with my self buffs only, again if you add in passive buffs you can guarantee getting it will deal at least 2000, probably more but i'll keep the number modest. Factoring in a 38% crit (due to 2% less from Mind Melt) this deals an average 2760 per tick.

Look again at that parse I linked - the majority of Shin's MS damage is on Burrowers as is the majority of his VT damage. Those numbers are a far better basis for the argumen but hey, I'm game - let's play with your numbers instead.

Your numbers are a mess. Even if I accept your base numbers, you're adding 130 per tick to VT and 170 per tick for MS due to passive buffs - when VT will have twice the benefit due to higher coefficient. So we should only add 65 per tick to MS, putting it down as a base 1905.

Worse still you're assuming that MS has the same crit scaling as VT when it doesn't, MS has no extra crit damage talent, so after correcting that error we're down to 2267 per MS tick.

This then gives us

47605 for MS against the 61.6k you quote for VT. That would be more like 4.5 ticks, and that's without T9 set bonus!

I guarantee you in a vast majority of practical circumstances you are better off simply casting MS.

First you argued that Berner's methodology was wrong and gave some crazy comparison based on the damage per tick of VT versus MS.

Then you argued that his base numbers were wrong and produced some heavily flawed numbers of your own, which once corrected again supported Berner.

Finally you fall back on the old, 'Even if I'm wrong it never happens', line. This is like the guy who robs the liquor store and then says to the cops 'I'm innocent, and besides they didn't have much money'.

[Worshaka]

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c.../dkt/8/0/3/320

The preponderance of top DK dps figures are from unholy. I'd say assuming an unholy DK is entirely reasonable in a hard-mode guild.

Look again at that parse I linked - the majority of Shin's MS damage is on Burrowers as is the majority of his VT damage. Those numbers are a far better basis for the argumen but hey, I'm game - let's play with your numbers instead.

Your numbers are a mess. Even if I accept your base numbers, you're adding 130 per tick to VT and 170 per tick for MS due to passive buffs - when VT will have twice the benefit due to higher coefficient. So we should only add 65 per tick to MS, putting it down as a base 1905.

Worse still you're assuming that MS has the same crit scaling as VT when it doesn't, MS has no extra crit damage talent, so after correcting that error we're down to 2267 per MS tick.

This then gives us

47605 for MS against the 61.6k you quote for VT. That would be more like 4.5 ticks, and that's without T9 set bonus!

First you argued that Berner's methodology was wrong and gave some crazy comparison based on the damage per tick of VT versus MS.

Then you argued that his base numbers were wrong and produced some heavily flawed numbers of your own, which once corrected again supported Berner.

Finally you fall back on the old, 'Even if I'm wrong it never happens', line. This is like the guy who robs the liquor store and then says to the cops 'I'm innocent, and besides they didn't have much money'.

Firstly, 2 burrowers spawn on Anub not 3

Secondly, your argument is that when you have 2pc T9, have adds that can guarantee to be alive for a minimum of 21 seconds + 4 GCD without a single one dying early, and you have an unholy DK in your group.... care to add any more specific restrictions to your claim?

Sure I can build a case for anything if I place such tightly controled restrictions, instead my argument is based on the fact that adds will almost never be alive for 21 seconds + 4 GCDs, nor will we always have 2pc T9, we'll have that set bonus for... an entire cycle of content, wow lets just base all of our theroycraft on a ability that amounts to about 1% of the time i've played this game.

Invariably (even in Anub) 1 target is killed immediately, this target doesn't live for 21 seconds, you might get half of your VT ticks on that target. If you want to argue hardmode, less than 1% of the wow population clears it, if you want to make an argument that DoT ticks are better than MS for that specific encounter, you actually have a point but I'll point out that you are again placing a specific restriction on the topic.

99.9% of the time you are better off utilisng MS from the start, it doesn't require a set of perfect circumstances to occur in order to be better.

I actually might add that even if you had an unholy DK the MS numbers would inflate at the same ratio as the VT numbers, so i'm actually not sure ebon plague actually changes anything in the argument.

Lastly my numbers were pulled from recount (a physical source) and they were inflated by roughly the right amount to take into a account the small amounts of SP gain from totems, kings & MotW (via spirit to sp conversion). Grabbing numbers from parses on a full debuffed raid boss is less accurated based on the fact that you won't have fully debuffed adds when you switch, nor will they have the 15 resist to all schools of magic because they won't be considered +3 levels.

Lastly, considering Anub spawns 2 adds, my point all a long was you needed 4 targets before MS was worthwhile, so in the last respect you're actually agreeing with me... ironic.

[Azyoulike]

Secondly, your argument is that when you have 2pc T9, have adds that can guarantee to be alive for a minimum of 21 seconds + 4 GCD without a single one dying early, and you have an unholy DK in your group.... care to add any more specific restrictions to your claim?

No actually - I demonstrated that even without T9-2set, even with no unholy DK, it was only necessary for no more than 4.5 ticks to be lost. I did that with your numbers once I removed your egregious errors. You on the other hand assumed that MS did 200% damage on crit rather than 150%, now that is a genuine counter-factual. Given utterly false assumptions like that you really can prove any point, as you attempted to demonstrate.

Sure I can build a case for anything if I place such tightly controled restrictions, instead my argument is based on the fact that adds will almost never be alive for 21 seconds + 4 GCDs, nor will we always have 2pc T9, we'll have that set bonus for... an entire cycle of content, wow lets just base all of our theroycraft on a ability that amounts to about 1% of the time i've played this game.

Again - drop the straw men. The point holds even without T9 set bonus, it holds with any set of raid buffs or debuffs. The only issue that will change it is scaling, currently haste will favour MS, crit & SP will favour VT. In 3.3 haste will be neutral but crit & SP will continue to favour VT.

Either you didn't read my previous post (which you quoted in full), or you didn't understand my post, or having done both and known that you're wrong you're unable to acknowledge that and move on - and felt a need to try to bring in a few more fallacies.

I'm hope it is the former, and rather suspect the latter. Do you think that people will think less of you for acknowledging a mistake? It's much less impressive to see you wriggle rather than do so.