Feral Bear Tank - Trinket Question - Death's Verdict

[Evilgenius]

Hi All,

I wanted some help from some people with better Feral Bear Tank knowledge than me.

I want to discuss the use of Death's Verdict for a bear tank and whether a bear tank can make good use of this item. We had a bit of our debate in our raid with the melee dps about a tank rolling on this trinket. I have tried doing some research myself and there are posts out there motivating this trinket for tanks, but I haven't found anything concrete yet.

The tanks version of the debate, was that the trinket becomes BiS for him once he has reached the Health soft cap.

What do people on this forum feel about bear tanks running with this trinket, over other options out there?

Thanks for the help.

[Volitar]

health soft cap?

Go for heroic and non heroic stam trinket from faction champs

[Neba]

The trinket is much better for dps use. The agility version of Darkmoon Card: Greatness actually gives more agility on average (190 versus 170) than the heroic version of Death's Verdict and even then we're only talking about avoidance and some mitigation from the armor provided by agility and Savage Defense procs.

Agility is good but it's not the only option out there. A tank could easily choose to buy the armor trinket from badges instead or a combination from a pretty wide variety of good tank trinkets out there. For dps Death's Verdict is the best trinket available for many specs.

[shagrarz]

this isn't the first time i've heard of this happening...and i'm sure it won't be the last. honestly, it isn't wasted if a bear uses it...but it isn't in the best interest of everyone involved. he may have more damage reduction than if he were to just use double stam trinkets...but by rolling on a BiS dps trinket he's taking away from a potential faster boss kill by not giving one of his guildmates that trinket. doing so makes him sound like a selfish prick...and no one like people like that...

[Evilgenius]

I have been given other feedback about this with some extra numbers and I was wondering what the readers on the forum felt about this to add to the debate?

This is what a feral (bear) druid benefits from the trinket:
Equip bonus (+256 attack power):
- increases threat
- increases shield strength (amount of damage absorbed from Savage Defense), synonymous to shield block for warriors/paladins
Proc effect (+450 agi = +-535 with talents + Kings in raid):
- increases crit change = higher uptime of shield, more threat
- increases armor by 1070
- increases dodge by over 12% (before DR)
Proc effect lasts 15 secs, 45s CD, so average uptime of 33% means average gain of +-300 armor, 4% dodge ... which is huge.

If you are health soft-capped (have enough health to survive a few seconds, or say 2 hits from a boss without a heal), then there is no need to use +stamina trinkets anymore, and this trinket becomes really strong. Also once Icecrown raids start, with -20% dodge nerf, and changes to bosses, avoidance will be valued much higher than it is now.

Rawr also rates this in the top 1-5 trinkets, value depending on the rest of your gear (how much stamina you have mostly).

[Nassam]

but by rolling on a BiS dps trinket he's taking away from a potential faster boss kill by not giving one of his guildmates that trinket. doing so makes him sound like a selfish prick...and no one like people like that...

^^ this

Guild are done to work "together" and it is a better upgrade for dps than for tanks IMO. So a tank rolling on it is "going against" its guild ...

[getefix]

^^ this

Guild are done to work "together" and it is a better upgrade for dps than for tanks IMO. So a tank rolling on it is "going against" its guild ...

I agree. No tank should be rolling on this until every melee in the guild has it. It's amazing for melee and druids have plenty of avoidance and mitigation options out there.

[Fbl]

Equip bonus (+256 attack power):
- increases threat
- increases shield strength (amount of damage absorbed from Savage Defense), synonymous to shield block for warriors/paladins
Proc effect (+450 agi = +-535 with talents + Kings in raid):
- increases crit change = higher uptime of shield, more threat
- increases armor by 1070
- increases dodge by over 12% (before DR)
Proc effect lasts 15 secs, 45s CD, so average uptime of 33% means average gain of +-300 armor, 4% dodge ...

increases threat... with that logic you can roll for grimm toll... it gives you more threat than stamina trinkets...
do you have problems with threat? so why do you care : )

do you honestly care about shield strength (savage defense - 25%attack power)? it's not same as warr/paladins block... you need to crit to get it... try tanking anub...
i'll trust your math... 300 armor? that's like 0.1% less phys dmg? brewfest trinekts probably gives you cca 4% healths... unless healers are oom i prefer 1% health than 1% dodge

it's clearly better for dpsers... would you like them to roll on stamina gear saying they need it to survive aoe abilities? don't get me wrong... it actually is good for tanking but it's not that good... i'd never have a hearth to roll for it over my fellow dpsers

[bavarcarus]

I don't think I'd actually use it for tanking, definitely wouldn't wanna take it from a dps. I'm using the badge one and the black heart, that armor proc nearly armor caps me. I also keep some stm trinkets around in case I want to have 57k health lol.

[Cheezee]

Hasn't this argument been made before on tons of other items? So and so is doing x which means he shouldn't get y and I don't care if he ususally does z instead. If you never, ever go cat then yeah, be a cool guy and pass it to the dps. If you dps in raids then spend your dkp, egp, whatever and get it, it's one of the best dps trinkets in the game for a kitty.

[Auroro]

Death's Verdict is a upgrade from Darkmoon Card: Greatness, it is a Greatness 2.0.

In the list of BiS, both Feral Tank and other DPS class can roll for it.

[Neba]

Death's Verdict is a upgrade from Darkmoon Card: Greatness, it is a Greatness 2.0.

In the list of BiS, both Feral Tank and other DPS class can roll for it.

But the thing actually has less agility than DC:G. Going from DC:G to ilvl 258 Death's Verdict, procs included you'd lose 20 agility and gain 288 AP. While the mitigation from AP is a benefit for bears, I don't think AP is that awesome for a bear tank to screw over dps for whom DV is the absolute best in many cases.

[Auroro]

But the thing actually has less agility than DC:G. Going from DC:G to ilvl 258 Death's Verdict, procs included you'd lose 20 agility and gain 288 AP. I don't think AP is that awesome for a bear tank to screw over dps for whom DV is the absolute best in many cases.

I have been given other feedback about this with some extra numbers and I was wondering what the readers on the forum felt about this to add to the debate?

This is what a feral (bear) druid benefits from the trinket:
Equip bonus (+256 attack power):
- increases threat
- increases shield strength (amount of damage absorbed from Savage Defense), synonymous to shield block for warriors/paladins
Proc effect (+450 agi = +-535 with talents + Kings in raid):
- increases crit change = higher uptime of shield, more threat
- increases armor by 1070
- increases dodge by over 12% (before DR)
Proc effect lasts 15 secs, 45s CD, so average uptime of 33% means average gain of +-300 armor, 4% dodge ... which is huge.

If you are health soft-capped (have enough health to survive a few seconds, or say 2 hits from a boss without a heal), then there is no need to use +stamina trinkets anymore, and this trinket becomes really strong. Also once Icecrown raids start, with -20% dodge nerf, and changes to bosses, avoidance will be valued much higher than it is now.

Rawr also rates this in the top 1-5 trinkets, value depending on the rest of your gear (how much stamina you have mostly).

Like Evilgenius posted, you have to test thing out. Death's Verdict (reg) give 60 more agi when it proc than DC:G. Death's Verdict (H) give 120 more agi. That 90 agi is going to be nothing. DC:G give 390 agi when proc, Death's Verdict (reg) 450, Death's Verdict (H) 510.

[Neba]

But that's only if you choose to include only the 15 seconds proc and ignore 30+ seconds without the proc. And while the proc is active, diminishing returns actually reduce the dodge given by the large procs more.

It's more accurate to include non-procced time as well, where we get DC:G with 190 agility and DV (H) with 170 agility if the procs immediately activate when the CD is done.

DV is so very highly sought after by dps in my guild that if a tank got it they'd probably murder him irl. :P

[Auroro]

DC:G only have 90 agi

[Neba]

Yeah that's the static value but looking at it like this over 45 seconds which is the cooldown for both trinkets, a full cycle:

DC:G : 90 agi up all the time + 300 agi up 1/3 of the time : average 190 agi

DV (H): 288 AP up all the time + 510 agi up 1/3 of the time : average 170 agi + 288 AP

[Sunshine]

Death's Verdict (reg) give 60 more agi when it proc than DC:G. Death's Verdict (H) give 120 more agi. That 90 agi is going to be nothing.

No. If I gave you a choice between 90 agi all the time or 60 agi 30% of the time, which would you choose? If you choose the 60 agi, you're silly. Now, 120 agi might be different, because it's a lot more agi, right?! But wait! 120 agi * 30% = 40 static agi equivalent. So yes, it's still less of an overall boost than 90 agi.

DMC:G is 190 agi after averaging out uptime. DV(H) is 170 agi after averaging. DMC:G wins out in the agi department.

Now, on to AP... Yes, AP gives us "block"... but at a pretty terrible conversion rate. That 256 AP gives us only +64 to our shield. It's nowhere near enough to justify losing the 20 agi or taking such a valuable trinket away from a dps class.

If you could control the proc, it might be different -- 450/510 agi on command with short cooldown (equiv to internal cd of the current version) would be great, and you could most definitely put it to good use. But as a random proc, even a semi-predictable and powerful one, it's just not worth it.

[Cheezee]

I'm still taking one or both if they ever freakin drop.

[raxin]

I already have the heroic version of this trinkent but then again i play a duel role in my raids. I am the MT on heroic anub 25man, but dps kitty on all other roles so. I can say based on a dkp system nobody has a right to deny a feral tank this trinkent, it is the highest avoidance trinkent i can think of in the game atm and i use it all the time on heroic anub.

I tend to go for a balance of mitigation and avoidance though on most fights, i hate the idea of stam stacking, especially for the anub fight, which actually hurts the raid. Stam stacking has it's place, but it's all about balance.

[Sunshine]

it is the highest avoidance trinkent i can think of in the game atm and i use it all the time on heroic anub.

How is it the highest avoidance trinket when DMC:G has higher avg and static avoidance?