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1. ## Re: mind flay clipping

That seems like a more reasonable explanation of what occurs...

2. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Worshaka
That seems like a more reasonable explanation of what occurs...
Aww, Hoddie beat me to it. I was going to say that pretty much word for word, lol.

Originally Posted by Worshaka
Personally I believe (with any sort of reasonable haste) to always use MF2 instead of SW and simply delay your next spell slightly. It's complex to prove if it's a DPS increase mathematically and it would go for a few pages so I won't bother. What I will say is that I have done a lot of dummy testing and any time I attempted to utilize SW I saw a significant DPS loss.

Admitadly I have 17% haste, so i'm at the top end of the spectrum for current gearing but i'd suggest anyone with a haste rate approaching 15% should utilise MF2 and not be too concerned about delaying MB by what turns out to be less than 0.5 seconds.
Yes I agree with this. As long as you aren't delaying MB by a whole second+ or something, being able to squeeze 2 MF ticks in because of a healthy dose of haste is better than SW. I wasn't really thinking about haste in my post and was just listing the basic clipping/priority idea and the basic options you have when it's almost time to MB/DP/VT (Which I think are...clip MF, SW. or do nothing).

But...this means that there IS a point while gearing (low haste) that 2 ticks could possibly delay MB by too much in some/many situations and that SW is better at that point, right? What I mean is, if you KNOW that you can't get 2MF off, but you have enough time for a GCD, then SW should be a good choice, at least on paper it seems like it, no?

Another question, if you're REALLY close to having to MB/DP/VT (<1 sec left), is doing nothing a valid option, as to not have the GCD eat into them by a second or more? I've always thought it was.

3. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Crazeh
iam kinda suprised NO ONE have suggested this iam about to say..... there is a simple macro to get full duration on MF without clipping it, you can spamm MF as much you want it still wont clipp till it's over, i use a similar macro for Drain life.
Crazeh, I'm not sure you are on the same page as the rest of us. You should read the replies in this thread more closely, because that's not what we are talking about. Losing the ability to clip MF would hurt Priests.

Clipping is about cutting the spell short on purpose. Shadow Priests do it so they can do as much damage as possible in between their other, higher priority spells without delaying those higher priority spells longer than they must be (CD's).

So, if there is only enough time for 2 MF (instead of all 3) ticks before Mind Blast, Devouring Plague, or Vampiric Touch need to be cast, then they cancel immediately after the 2nd tick so they can cast one of those spells without delaying them further than their cooldowns. Delaying those higher priority spells just to get the 3rd MF tick off would result in a DPS loss.

4. ## Re: mind flay clipping

I use macros to prevent premature clipping. For instance, all my damage spells are macroed like this:

#showtooltip Mind Blast
/cast [nochanneling] Mind Blast; [modifier] Mind Blast
It stops me jumping the gun when both MF ending and MB becoming available at 'the same time'. Certainly helped me increase my dps. By holding any [modifier] (alt, ctrl, shift) I can interrupt the MF/MS and cast MB without the need for a seperate interrupt macro/escape button.

Depending on the complexities of your keybindings, you might need to change the [modifier] bit.

5. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by jonish
mind flay does 3 ticks of damage in its duration.

While most assume as a channeled spell that all 3 come in exact incriments which is untrue. People think with mind flay that it is a 3 second channel and that each tick comes after 1 second of cast time. Meaning that as a 3 second channel the first tick comes at 2 seconds the second comes at 1 second and the third comes right as the spell end. While the 3rd does come as the spell ends the first and second come very close together creating a much larger gap between the second and third ticks of the channel.

0-------------1-----2------------3

since channel casting shows up as an emptying bar im vaguely illustrating how mind flay channels
the 0 indicates the end of the cast and the final tick
the 1 and 2 indicate the first tick(2) and the second tick(1)
the 3 indicates the start point of the channeling

What people refer too when they are talking about clipping is watching a timer or cast bar and cancelling the mind flay after the second tick has gone off by starting a new cast. For instance your Mind blast timer is up or one of your dots is about to fall off.

If you can consistently get it right then it can be a pretty significant boost to your dps over a fight.
Penance "appears" to do this too, but i've always put it down to lag...

6. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Vashta
Penance "appears" to do this too, but i've always put it down to lag...
Penance is a "missile" heal, thus the first heal won't land right away. MF and Penance have different mechanics and it is of no use to compare the too.

7. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Hoddie
It stops me jumping the gun when both MF ending and MB becoming available at 'the same time'.
Hmm, maybe I'm the one not understanding what you're saying, lol.

If MB is available, you should want to clip MF so you can cast MB immediately.

Originally Posted by fabian
Penance is a "missile" heal, thus the first heal won't land right away. MF and Penance have different mechanics and it is of no use to compare the too.
You can compare them. You just have to look at when the Penance missile leaves instead of lands. When you look at that you'll see that they tick "staggered" sometimes like the way Jonish said MF ticks went off "staggered", as in not ticking at equal increments of time, which is what the tooltips imply.

I still chalk this up to the nature of massive online games, server-client communications trying to keep up with quick ticking spells and unavoidable, natural information/graphical "lag".

8. ## Re: mind flay clipping

If MB is available, you should want to clip MF so you can cast MB immediately.

Surely that's not true every time. Let's say MF finishes in 0.6 seconds and MB is available in 0.5 seconds. If I spam MB I will probably lose the last tick of MF (unless lag means I get it anyway), whereas spamming MB with that macro ensures I get the 3rd tick and I cast MB asap. I'm not waiting for a GCD to cast MB, just 0.1 seconds.

...before my error hit me full in the face. I now see the light lol. Even though you lose the 3rd tick of MF, you get to cast MB 0.1 second earlier, and all future casts 0.1 second earlier, which is a cumulative gain and over a long fight the gain would be quite a bit. Assuming no mana issues, and there shouldn't be any, it would be wrong to use the macro in most situations.

However, I do see the macro helping when casting 2 x MF. You can just spam the macro (with MF in place of MB) instead of waiting for an addon to tell you when to cast the second one (especially as the addon is almost certainly guestimating your lag, which may be wrong at any given moment, and not taking account of your reaction speed unless you've configured it exceptionally well). The macro will ensure you get the 3rd tick from the 1st MF and cast the second one asap.

In my defence I have only been shadow spec for a few months and I am still learning myself.

9. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Here's a little background on "rotation collisions" for Shadow Priests and the ideas behind delaying spells because 2 spells need to be cast at the same time. It's a little long but it leads into clipping at the end.

When Shadow Priests have a "collision" it means that 2 of their spells need to be cast at the same time, like Mind Blast is off CD and Devouring Plague just dropped off of their target. At this point, the Priest needs to make a choice on which one to cast first, Mind Blast, or reapply Devouring Plague. Whichever choice you make will cause the other spell to be "delayed".

With the basic idea of "collisions" (the act of having to choose between 2 spells) in mind, I can try to explain how delaying one of them to cast the other affects your DPS.

Lets look at Devouring Plague and Mind Blast. DP has a 25.5 second "cycle" (GCD + duration) and MB has a 7 second "cycle" (1.5s cast time plus 5.5s CD). Now lets say that a collision has occurred between these two spells for whatever reason (collisions will happen, it's the Priest's job is to minimize these occurrences). Your Mind Blast is off cooldown and ready to be cast and your Devouring Plague DoT just dropped off your target and needs to be refreshed, both happening at the same time.

Now, making a choice to cast one of these spells will result in the other spell being delayed by the GCD and possibly the cast time. Lets say we choose to cast DP first. This will delay the casting of MB by 1 GCD = 1.5 seconds. 1.5 out of 7 seconds is ~21%. You're losing ~21% of the DPS of the spell.

And if you decide to cast Mind Blast first and delay DP, you will be delaying DP by 1 GCD = 1.5 seconds. 1.5 out of 25.5 seconds is ~6%. You are only losing 6% of the DPS, much much less than if you were to delay Mind Blast.

Now onto the topic at hand, clipping. This idea about how much DPS is lost when delaying a specific spell during a collision is what the "clipping" of Mind Flay is based on. Mind Flay is just your filler spell. It's only to be used when your other, higher priority spells don't need to be or can't be cast.

If you are in the middle of channeling a Mind Flay and Mind Blast will be ready to use and off CD before the Mind Flay will finish, you want to cut the Mind Flay short, or "clip" it on purpose as to not delay Mind Blast. If you delay it by 1 second, you're losing 14% of it's DPS. That's worth much, much more than not clipping the Mind Flay and letting it finish it's last tick.

Originally Posted by Hoddie
Surely that's not true every time. Let's say MF finishes in 0.6 seconds and MB is available in 0.5 seconds. If I spam MB I will probably lose the last tick of MF (unless lag means I get it anyway), whereas spamming MB with that macro ensures I get the 3rd tick and I cast MB asap. I'm not waiting for a GCD to cast MB, just 0.1 seconds.
This situation you describe is really rare I think and not a usual chain of events, unless you have a perfect amount of haste or something. Almost every time a Priest is channeling Mind Flay close to when MB is coming off CD or DP/VT needing to be reapplied, the Mind Flay will most certainly delay MB/DP/VT by closer to 1 full second or more. The amount of DPS you lose from waiting 1 second to cast the higher priority spells is bigger than what you gain by finishing the last tick of MF.

If
you know you can squeeze in an entire Mind Flay, all 3 ticks, and delay your MB or DP or VT by only 0.1 seconds, then that last tick of Mind Flay might be worth more than clipping it to Mind Blast, and, I think, is definitely worth more than clipping it to reapply DP and VT.

0.1 seconds of a 7 second MB "cycle" (1.5 cast time + 5.5 CD) is a 1.4% DPS loss while delaying a 25.5 seconds DP "cycle" (GCD + duration) by 0.1 seconds is only a 0.4% DPS loss, which the 3rd tick of MF should be worth more damage than that 0.4% DPS.

10. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Sadly I don't have anything to add to help the OP. I, as a mage, just wanted to comment on this thread you guys have going. The rotation you guys have sounds like so much fun compared to what I am used to. Everything you guys have said makes sense to me even though I have never played a priest past level 20. I already have the wheels turning in my head and I all of a sudden want to be doing this rotation in raids. Damn you guys and this thread! If I leveled a priest it would be my second alt. I definitely don't have the time.

11. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Paul
I'm not to the point of dot timers and tick management just yet, although I intend to get to that point. At two days of lvl 80 with my priest, I'm to the point of keeping my dots up and casting mind blast after cooldown as a priority over mindflay (basic priority casting).

What I'm curious about, until I do start using dot timers, is would I lose or gain dps by clipping mindflay in order to refresh my dots or cast a mindblast if I had no idea where mindblast was in regards to ticks?
you can't get 100% out of your toon unless you have the right tools, i.e., a dot timer (i use classtimer, event horizon has too much unnecessary crap, and then a castbar, i use macaroon bars for buttons/cast bar)

you never have to reapply SWP unless you screw up, mind flay refreshes it with every tick

you'll NEVER want to reapply VT or DP early because it's a bigger dps loss than reapplying it a second late. you ideally want to time it so that you apply it .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds after it falls off

dp is the same but has lower priority than VT and MB, so you usually end up applying it right after a MB depending on your haste

the times when you'll need to clip mind flay is when you have less than 400 haste and you are setting the boss up, you open with VT--MB--DP--MF2 (2 ticks of mind flay)--SWP--MF3--MF3--etc

when you get to around 500 haste+, with a shaman's totem, you'll be able to get a full mind flay and SWP off before MB is ready to use

sometimes, you'll have to move or whatever and you won't have time for 3 ticks of MF without having to cast VT or MB late, which is bad, better to clip it after 2 ticks so you can get MB or VT cast in time

12. ## Re: mind flay clipping

@ G l o w y r m

I understand what you're saying. I'm really going to have to test with and without the macro because it certainly seems that I've been delaying the important casts by the smallest amount of time in order to ensure I get the 3rd tick of MF, using the macro I posted earlier to minimise the delay as much as possible. It's obviously difficult for me to say with any certainty how long the delay is, but I doubt it's anywhere close to a second.

Having thought about it earlier I came to the conclusion that it's probably better to discard my macro and lose the 3rd tick, cast MB, and carry on. Figured this method would use more mana but that's rarely a problem, and over the course of a long fight the extra MBs, etc I fit in would more than compensate for the loss of the 3rd ticks.

Your latest post has me thinking that my macro would actually be more beneficial for me after all. I can see why delaying MB by a second is a non-starter but as it generally works out for me now that doesn't seem to happen. MF finishing and MB being ready always seems to happen at virtually the same time. I'm at that point where a little haste either way, from buffs/debuffs etc, can occasionally mean that MB is ready a fraction before MF ends, so I started using the macro to prevent me losing the 3rd tick.

The most common collision I see is VT and MB, and I've always prioritised MB over VT. I've recently considered opening with MB then VT instead of the other way around in an attempt to smooth out that collision, but I haven't yet had chance to try this to see if it has a positive effect.

I've always accepted that spriests have to prioritise their spells in order to squeeze the best out of them, but I never really cared too much why. Others had done the work and I was happy that they knew more about it than me. Thanks for shedding some light on the reasons why, I really appreciate it.

13. ## Re: mind flay clipping

when you get to around 500 haste+, with a shaman's totem, you'll be able to get a full mind flay and SWP off before MB is ready to use
I can sometimes fit a SW in on my opening sequence too. Makes me wonder if I have too much haste lol.

14. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Hoddie
I can sometimes fit a SW in on my opening sequence too. Makes me wonder if I have too much haste lol.
If you're using the correct opening rotation of VT, MB, DP, MF, SW:P it means you can fit in a SW:P right after the SW:P before MB is off CD. Considering MB is 5.5 sec CD what you're claiming is that you can cast DP, MF, SW:P & SW in 5.5 seconds which equates to having a GCD of 1.1 seconds which occurs at 36.36% haste or 1192 haste rating.

I suggest you are delaying your MB by casting SW or you are over exaggerating.

15. ## Re: mind flay clipping

I suggest you are delaying your MB by casting SW or you are over exaggerating.
No need to exaggerate. Theoretically you can easily fit the opening rotation in with time to spare before MB is available to use again. Even allowing for lag you're still likely to fit it in without problem.

Potentially with raid buffs, and almost certainly with heroism, you can fit a SW in before MB becomes available again, or delay MB by only a fraction of a second. Note that I did say 'sometimes' in my original post which you kind of ignored.

Consider also that you can clip MF at 2 if you wanted to, though this is something I generally only do so when movement is necessary.

16. ## Re: mind flay clipping

I generally throw in a SW after MF to get the last proc of Eye of the Broodmother. I know it's just 25sp, but it bugs me.

17. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Hoddie
No need to exaggerate. Theoretically you can easily fit the opening rotation in with time to spare before MB is available to use again. Even allowing for lag you're still likely to fit it in without problem.

Potentially with raid buffs, and almost certainly with heroism, you can fit a SW in before MB becomes available again, or delay MB by only a fraction of a second. Note that I did say 'sometimes' in my original post which you kind of ignored.

Consider also that you can clip MF at 2 if you wanted to, though this is something I generally only do so when movement is necessary.
I just proved above that you'd need a stupid amount of haste for this to be true, yes you can do it under heroism/bloodlust but if your raids open with bloodlust it illustrates the fact that you don't use it to it's max potential. The first 15 seconds or so is when people are ramping up their DPS, using it off the bat is just a loss in DPS.

18. ## Re: mind flay clipping

I just proved above that you'd need a stupid amount of haste for this to be true, yes you can do it under heroism/bloodlust but if your raids open with bloodlust it illustrates the fact that you don't use it to it's max potential. The first 15 seconds or so is when people are ramping up their DPS, using it off the bat is just a loss in DPS.
No you don't need a stupid amount of haste, you can simply clip MF (which is what the topic is all about) or depending on raid buffs simply delay MB by a fraction of a second.

There are times when group composition makes legitimate use of heroism at the start of particular fights a valid tactic. Not all guilds have the ideal spread of classes/specs and, particularly in PUGs, raid leaders don't always know what's best for the group as a whole.

I might be fairly new to the forum but I had you down all wrong. Didn't expect you to pick fault in what was clearly a candid statement, particularly as it was qualified by the word 'sometimes'.

Anyway, bored with this.

19. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Worshaka
If you're using the correct opening rotation of VT, MB, DP, MF, SW:P it means you can fit in a SW:P right after the SW:P before MB is off CD. Considering MB is 5.5 sec CD what you're claiming is that you can cast DP, MF, SW:P & SW in 5.5 seconds which equates to having a GCD of 1.1 seconds which occurs at 36.36% haste or 1192 haste rating.
If as he implied, MF is clipped on the second tick, then you would only need around 16% haste. As such, in context, the above is a gross exaggeration.

20. ## Re: mind flay clipping

Originally Posted by Hoddie
No you don't need a stupid amount of haste, you can simply clip MF (which is what the topic is all about) or depending on raid buffs simply delay MB by a fraction of a second.

There are times when group composition makes legitimate use of heroism at the start of particular fights a valid tactic. Not all guilds have the ideal spread of classes/specs and, particularly in PUGs, raid leaders don't always know what's best for the group as a whole.

I might be fairly new to the forum but I had you down all wrong. Didn't expect you to pick fault in what was clearly a candid statement, particularly as it was qualified by the word 'sometimes'.

Anyway, bored with this.
Clipping MF by 1 tick for SW still requires 18% haste and is possible but it's a DPS loss.... at 18% haste, 1 tick of MF is 0.84 seconds of time and a GCD is 1.27 seconds of time. So basically you are using 0.43 seconds longer to do very similar damage, and that's on the assumption you clip MF perfectly. In all likelihood if you are trying to clip it that perfectly you get the occasional MF1 which is undesirable or you delay the clip but 0.2 seconds which is a reasonable reaction time.

Not to mention that each tick of MF causes a stack of shadow weaving so you have nothing to gain by casting SW... so if this is what you're doing, I suggest you stop it.

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