Ret: Would you trade Bubble for offensive tools?

[Evilhealz]

Itll never happen. Ret paladins toss out the most burst damage than any melee class aside from a feral druid. MS and interrupt is another ability rets will never get.

[DaGhostDS]

the fact that we dont need preparation for burst is the only advantage we got.

in fact we do have a preparation, we do 9% less damage when we start combat, and we need to crit 3 time
in other rng /facepalm preparation
but saying ret have a high burst? whut? Welcome to 3.2

[Copain]

in fact we do have a preparation, we do 9% less damage when we start combat, and we need to crit 3 time
in other rng /facepalm preparation
but saying ret have a high burst? whut? Welcome to 3.2

He's saying you can use your hard hitting spells without setting up something else first (Such as Combo points, rage, debuffs, blah blah).

[rabbimojo]

...
re-read it carefully
...

Re-read -what- carefully?

...
you might see , for example, a double healer+warrior teams in 3v3 bracket.
but i dont recall a single 2 heal+ret team.

Yep. I think a lot of people forget that MS is analogous to a "deals damage when healed" effect. IE, you put it on someone, they get a heal for 5k, MS just proc'd a 2500 damage hit.

MS has the honor of being the only "damage" effect that is not reduced by resilience. (Maybe that's the solution to MS? Healing debuff nerfed based on the target's resilience)

So in effect, a warrior does a lot of damage that doesn't pop up over the target's head.

[Lysah]

If you clicked yes, reroll warrior.

kthx


Edit: We already temporarily trade bubble for AW, in that it causes forbearance.

[DaGhostDS]

aye, we need to do damage to do damage.
sounds as is.

its fail with resilience..

[exochaft]

honestly that bubble is USELESS to prot and ret COMPLETLY in PvE if you as ret or prot use it you are doomed to A
lose aggro on tanking target or B do less DPS as you should be doing. only ones that use it in PvE are holys that get targetted by some big dmg spell or get CC

it's most useless in PvP also as ret you got 2 choice when you use it A heal yourself or B chase the target if you heal yourself hes gonna run away on mount or heal himself so it's just a reset and not a good one at that either. not to mention if we blow it and some one removes it we can't defend ourself

we are the ONLY class atm that have to choose between offense or defence atm meaning that if we blow AW we can't defend for 30 secs ourself theese are the moments we are usually dead in arena

If you think bubble is useless to prot/ret in PvE, you haven't abused bubble sacs like the rest of the raiding world. Raid success >>> Personal DPS. For PvP, until LoH has a forbearance attached to it on personal use, you sacrifice barely anything in having to use bubble (other than attack speed, but ret has so many instant abilities that the penalty overall is minor). Other than rogues using Vanish, it's right up there with being able to reset a fight in your favor. You can toss around saying Shattering Throw and Mass Dispel negate this, but at least you have an option to begin with. If you're predictable when you toss up your bubble and those counters are present, that's your own fault for letting them lead you on. I know my sig shows druid, but I have an 80 ret pally in my arsenal, too =D

For those discussing a ret pally prep period, the reason most ppl don't consider us having it is because the ret rotation does not change because Vengeance isn't at a 3-stack. Don't know many people that hold off on CS/DS/Judgement until you have a 3-stack of Vengeance. You want a prep period, try being a feral kitty. You can go over into the druid forums and see the QQ about 12k Ferocious Bite crits and see the setup it takes to actually do it... THAT

[rabbimojo]

...
you sacrifice barely anything in having to use bubble (other than attack speed, but ret has so many instant abilities that the penalty overall is minor).
...

Just wanted to point out that DS halves damage dealt while it's up, now. Used to just be attack speed, but as ret gained more and more instant output, they changed that. :P

[Varius]

The problem for all pallies in general is we have 2 self defensive cooldowns, one complete immunity every 5 mins, 1 50% dmg reduction every 3 mins, they both lock out the other for 2 mins, they lock out avenging wrath for 30 seconds, and they are dispellable by priests and warriors.

We then have 1 cooldown that stops physical damage, that gets locked out for 2 mins by forberance, and is dispellable by all classes with an offensive dispell, then we have a 6-10 sec freedom(dispellable) 25 sec cooldown(can remove stuns if talented) heals, sacred shield, and a defensive dispell that removes 1 magic, disease, and poison effect each time its cast.

Everyone is right, we are a defensive hybrid, but when a large portion of our defenses are easily dispellable in arena against classes that get to dispell with no gcd, and our undispellable(except for priest/warrior) defenses are 10-12 secs every 5/3 mins and lock out the other ones for 2 minutes in arena battles that usually last 3-5 minutes with one person being killed in under 30 secs securing victory for one team we are basically boned.

The problem is instead of one old jack of all trades defensive cooldown that stops everything but shattering throw and mass dispell we need cooldowns that we can use to clear debuffs, reduce incoming damage, be able to heal with an interrupter on us so that instead of god mode every 5 minutes and crap for the remaining 4:30 we are able to use what cooldowns are needed when and then not be a target afterwards.

Holy suffers from the same problems as ret does, after you have blown bubble you have 1 to 3 tools(Holy Shock,Freedom, and aura mastery when it works) to try to get your heals off, if holy had the ability to reduce damage and clear cc with diffrent longish cooldowns it would be much better off than having to have a team that is able to either cc or reduce damage incoming until the pally is free of a cc chain so he doesnt havent to bubble early and then gets trained by the other team.

[Aesis]

actually, i'd like in-combat charge ability, but not trade it with bubble ;D

[Renoblade]

i think Varius have a good point there.
our defenses have too large gaps.

i think it would be easyer to get by with shorter cooldowns and duration and a short forberance that does reduce the effect instead of prevent it.
like this:

3 minutes on Divine Shield and Protection.
5-6 sec duration.
forberance last 30-60sec.

and while forberance is still active your effect of protection is only 25% and Shield is only 2-3 seconds.
the main need for shield is to get rid of all debuffs and get a breath for at least 1 heal.

[pavl]

honestly that bubble is USELESS to prot and ret COMPLETLY in PvE if you as ret or prot use it you are doomed to A
lose aggro on tanking target or B do less DPS as you should be doing. only ones that use it in PvE are holys that get targetted by some big dmg spell or get CC

it's most useless in PvP also as ret you got 2 choice when you use it A heal yourself or B chase the target if you heal yourself hes gonna run away on mount or heal himself so it's just a reset and not a good one at that either. not to mention if we blow it and some one removes it we can't defend ourself

we are the ONLY class atm that have to choose between offense or defence atm meaning that if we blow AW we can't defend for 30 secs ourself theese are the moments we are usually dead in arena

Divine sacrifice and Divine shield work beautifully for togc FC and twins and Gormok to get rid of your stacks if you're tanking etc. We run 6 pallies usually, 2 tanks, 1 ret, and 3 holy and we have all of them specced into divine sacrifice.

[Arganaut]

No, because paladins are supposed to be a defensive hyrbid class, and taking away their main defensive abiblty and giving them more warrior-like moves is just taking out some of the class's uniqueness.

GC said we were no longer a defensive hybrid (cannot find recent quote) so this comment doesn't wash any longer or is it in-line with Blizz's 'plans'.

"It'll never happen. Ret paladins toss out the most burst damage than any melee class aside from a feral druid. MS and interrupt is another ability rets will never get."

I don't believe this for a moment.

I cannot recall the exact post, but the idea of Retri getting an interupt low down in the Retri tree, which reduces the effect of DS to in effect be a version of the priest shield (I think would be a fair comprimise).

Perhaps Holy and Prot can get a similar talents low in their tree that give them something they need, but reduces the effect of DS. Perhaps if it is needed for balance, the talent also reduces damage/healing output by X amount and for Prot, reduces Armor or something (this last point is for Copain).