Thread: Pally in ICC

  1. #1
    Pit Lord Eurytos's Avatar
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    Pally in ICC

    Is anyone's guild having them change to Ret for ICC? Assuming you know how to dps and their are other competent healers/tanks to take your place, wouldn't it be more beneficial to the raid dps to be Ret, considering the substantial damage increase we get on undead?

    Just wondering what you guys are doing for ICC as paladins. I'm one of the MTs for my guild, but my Ret set is almost as good as my tank set, so its not like they would be carrying me as dps. I can hold my own and am usually top 7, when I am allowed to dps. I'm trying to convince my raid leader to let me dps, he hates ret paladins. Let me know what ya'll are doing.
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  2. #2

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Healers and Tanks are more useful than DPS, and are more of the core. If you are a better tank/healer you should be that, not DPS, because your use will not be gone.

    And the DPS increase is not that large, it is a small boost, but not enough to make rets the best or most useful.
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  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    The actual layout might be slightly different, but the idea is correct.
    (Crusade) (2H Spec) (Sanc Ret)
    Base DPS x 1.03 x 1.06 x 1.03 = DPS on non-humanoids, demons, undead, or elementals

    (Crusade) (2H Spec) (Sanc Ret) (GoSense)
    Base DPS x 1.06 x 1.06 x 1.03 x 1.01= DPS on undead targets.

    1.03 x 1.01= 4.03% is the amount of bonus damage we gain against undead targets.

    4% increased damage is not god-mode. It's nice, but certainly doesn't justify stacking Rets. I was very surprised with GC's statement from the ICC testing that there have been so few prot pallys being used in ICC. With everyone's perception that pallys and druids are the dominant tanks atm, I would have thought that there would have been plenty of prot pallys running up in there on the PTR.

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  4. #4

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Prentice, don't forget that out Exorcism always crits on Undead and Demons.

  5. #5

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Even so, exo is last on our priority list, most likely won't be glyphed for the extra damage, and makes up such a minor part of our dps (even less with tpc tier 10) that it really doesn't need to be taken into account.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf
    Prentice, don't forget that out Exorcism always crits on Undead and Demons.
    Given our "rotation" as it should stand in ICC, Exorcism will be our 4th attack but will still hold a low priority.

    CS = 4 second CD
    Judgment = 8 second CD
    DS = 4-5 second CD (assuming 2pc T10)

    At best, you might be able to sneak an Exo in on your second go-round.

    0sec=DS
    1.5sec=Judgment
    3.0sec=CS
    4.5sec=DS
    6.0sec=Exo
    7.5sec=CS
    9.5sec=Judgment

    This is assuming perfect usage of CDs as they come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_swad
    Even so, exo is last on our priority list, most likely won't be glyphed for the extra damage, and makes up such a minor part of our dps (even less with tpc tier 10) that it really doesn't need to be taken into account.
    Exorcism priority jumps in front of Consecration when the target is undead/demon. With the overhaul of our attack priority, we will most likely be dropping Glyph of Consecration for Glyph of Exorcism if you still need the expertise granted by Glyph of Seal of Vengeance.

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  7. #7

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Don't forget, prot has those talents too. More threat (and dps) to hold off those cats that will easily be pulling 10k single target. (Other people will do as good of dps, but the others all have a threat dump)
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  8. #8
    Field Marshal leelad's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    Was actually expecting a holy wrath nerf before it goes live.

    That with conc and command and i'll show that trash who's boss.

  9. #9

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    Exorcism priority jumps in front of Consecration when the target is undead/demon. With the overhaul of our attack priority, we will most likely be dropping Glyph of Consecration for Glyph of Exorcism if you still need the expertise granted by Glyph of Seal of Vengeance.
    I dont think exo has ever jumped in front of cons in the current setup (3.2) unless you are referring to 3.3, then I am not sure and will take your word for it.

    From EJ's Ret 3.2 thread

    Basic clash resolution is as follows: HoW > CS > Judgement > DS > Consecration > Exorcism > Holy Wrath

    and why..
    HoW - This skill only comes into play when a mob is at 20%; it then becomes your top priority due to it's extremely high crit rate and fairly short CD.
    CS - CS hits like a limp noodle now but it still procs SoV, making it close to judgement in terms of dps. It is ahead of judgement because of the very short cd, and delaying a CS by even a second reduces your DPS by a large amount.
    Judgement - JoV hits harder than Blood used to in 3.1, but still not quite hard enough to pull ahead of CS. (actually, once your AP gets over 7k raid buffed and 2pc tier 9, this becomes your top priority)
    DS - Nothing changed about DS from 3.1 so it sits exactly where it did then.
    Consecration - Consecration moves near the top of the pile only against multiple (4+) adds.
    Exorcism - It hits hard, but because of it's somewhat long cooldown (15s) and reliance on spellhit, it isn't great dps. Do not use this on a pull because it will not be instant cast, and will delay entering melee combat.
    Holy Wrath - Only effective against multiple (6+) demons/undead, you are better off using your free GCD casting DP or a SS on someone. This is as close to a mana dump skill as we have.

    From the 3.3 thread

    The 2T10 bonus changes the priority to Judge>DS>CS>HOW>Cons>Exo with 2T9 and 2T10 bonuses. I am unsure what happens after you break 2T9.


    Exo still bottom of the pile

    Also should note that the glyph of exo is worth around 50dps

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    Damn it. You're gonna make me dig this crap up. I'll have to snoop around EJ for a bit to find it. As of 3.2.2 with 2pc T9, the rotation should be:
    HoW>Judgment>CS>DS>Consecration(replace with Exorcism if undead/demon)>Exorcism(replace with Consecration if undead/demon)>Holy Wrath

    I'll see if I can scrounge this post up on EJ again.

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  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    It appears that they removed the thread that referenced the priority differences between undead and non-undead.

    If you look at the thread titled "Ret FCFS Rotation Helper" you can see that they are implying that the mod isn't checking to see if the mob is undead/demon before determining whether or not to put Exorcism ahead.

    The following info is pulled directly from the Ret 3.3 thread found at the top of these forums.

    [4DRS]- DPS Rotations

    Unlike other DPS specs of other classes, a Ret Paladin has no true rotation- Instead, you must watch the cooldown of your abilities and use them once they are available, much like an Enhancement Shaman or Affliction Warlock. Depending on the situation, you may do more damage with one specific ability than you would with another.

    Single-target DPS- For Slow dying mobs, or Raid Bosses with a large amount of health.
    Without any Tier bonuses, the following gives the most DPS, based on the amount of damage each
    ability does over the course of 1 minute, instead of how much burst damage it does
    per cooldown:

    Hammer of Wrath > Crusader Strike > Judgement > Divine Storm > Exorcism (when
    undead or demon) > Consecration > Exorcism (non-undead or demon) > Holy Wrath

    With the 2pc Tier 9 bonus, thus changes slightly due to Judgement's naturally larger crit chance:

    Hammer of Wrath > Judgement > Crusader Strike > Divine Storm > Exorcism (when
    undead or demon) > Consecration > Exorcism (non-undead or demon) > Holy Wrath

    The rotation changes a third time with the 2pc Tier 10 bonus. Note this is with current tests done on the PTR, as set bonuses are not finalized yet:

    Hammer of Wrath > Divine Storm> Judgement > Crusader Strike > Exorcism (when
    undead or demon) > Consecration > Exorcism (non-undead or demon) > Holy Wrath

    Multi-target DPS- For weaker multiple mobs or groups with little health.
    Divine Storm > (Hammer of Wrath) > Judgement > Consecration > Holy Wrath (when available) >
    Crusader Strike > Exorcism
    After plugging in my current gear and toying with the rotation options in Rawr, I noticed that placing Exorcism ahead of Consecration results in a DPS loss regardless of the glyphs. I don't fully understand this and can only guess that Exorcism isn't being calculated properly.

    Rawr shows that my Exo should hit for 4k and crit for 6k. Those are WAY less than actual numbers. Rawr cannot be including the Exo glyph damage and their has to be a problem with their Exorcism spell coefficient calculations.

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  12. #12

    Re: Pally in ICC

    Ret pally will be the fucking win in ICC dps meters.
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  13. #13

    Re: Pally in ICC

    OK thanks for that prentice, I'll try that out in TotC tonight and see if theres a noticable difference. Until now, the only time I have been prioritising eco over cons is faction champs (for obvious reasons). If what your saying is right, then this will be a bit of a boost to the already stupid numbers that I get on the twins.

    Edit: also did you check that your mob type in rawr was set to undead? that might be the difference, also exo goes off the spell hit table, so its not always a guaranteed hit (which will further affect your numbers)

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Pally in ICC

    Quote Originally Posted by The_swad
    OK thanks for that prentice, I'll try that out in TotC tonight and see if theres a noticable difference. Until now, the only time I have been prioritising eco over cons is faction champs (for obvious reasons). If what your saying is right, then this will be a bit of a boost to the already stupid numbers that I get on the twins.

    Edit: also did you check that your mob type in rawr was set to undead? that might be the difference, also exo goes off the spell hit table, so its not always a guaranteed hit (which will further affect your numbers)
    I was certainly looking at the Undead target option. If you mouse over the Exorcism attack in the bottom center of your Rawr main window, you will see the expected Crit, Hit, and Miss information. With my current hit rating plus Misery selected as a buff/debuff, The mouseover was showing that I had ~4% miss chance with Exo, 4k Hit, 6.2k Crit at 95% crit chance. It ain't right, but I just don't know what to say.

    On last nights Anub, I missed the WMO Ret pally scoreboard by like 100 DPS. Pretty pissed about that. That makes Twin Valkyr(HM25) and Anub'arak(HM25) where I am just a whisker below top 20.

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