A Question for Druid raid tanks

[phyrix]

It's not a big deal if you are the MT, but rage sucks. Bear and Warrior OTs are terrible, and I really hope Blizz can fix rage one day. That's really my only complaint about either of the two that I can think of. Both classes are pretty cool overall and you should have fun playing each.

They're planning to get rid of 'on next attack' skills, such as Heroic Strike or Maul come Cataclysm.
This change could bring a huge change to the whole rage system.

[Gigikent]

I'm currently lvl'ing a Druid to tank with but also a pally. I've been lvl'ing both because I'm having a hard time trying to decide. Now that I've got them both to lvl60, which do I go all the way with. I asked a few pally's this but it boils down to they don't know enough about Druids tanks to comment, and I don't know any in game and I have not seen a druid tanking anything since WotLK came out.

Anyways, my question is what are things Pally do better than Druids in the tanking department? And what are things Druids do better than Pally's tanking wise? This is also for progression tanking.

I'm MT for my guild right now because of my ability to tank. But my GM who is a healer always comments how much easier Warriors and Pallys are to heal which I do know that is right, thats just the way of things right now. I love tanking and want to try a different class to tank with is all.

thanks in advance.

Get a new GM and new healers.

[FamilyGoat]

In all honesty (?), if you are having rage issues at the start (or anytime during) a fight DUE TO LACK OF BOSS HITS (ie you just dodged your 10th consecutive attack in a row) just cut out maul from your rotation or pop berserk. Yes it will lower your threat, but I've found once I get aggro, I don't loose it (exceptions on gimmic fights: Hodir/Vez...).

As for OTing, if you are using maul instead of your reg attacks, and then complaining that you ran out of rage, those abilities are called rage dumps for a reason. Just because DK's and Pally don't deal with rage, doesn't mean they don't loose threat as an OT (I know dks loose rune strike (need to dodge for that to proc I think), not sure on pally, but I think at least part of their threat comes from mobs hitting them).

[Kshar]

Alot of supposition in this thread.

Bottom line is, if sufficiently geared and intelligently played any tank class can perform fine on basically any encounter. That isn't to say if u have the choice that certain tanks can't shine on certain encounters (Jarraxus MT - Warrior/DK; Anub adds - Pally/Warr; Twins - Druid/DK; Gormok - Druid; Anub MT - Druid etc.).

Pros: Highest base physical mitigation (armor, avg well geared bear will sit at 30k +), 2nd highest base magic mitigation (12% just behind warriors), by far the highest Effective Health (which is useful in worst case scenarios), very high raid utility (brez, innervate, impressive cat dps as needed, mangle bleed buff, LoTP heals and crit etc.). Highest tank dps.

Cons: Limited tank utility (interrupts, cooldowns etc.) and below avg. avoidance. (that being said, druids do well with 3 base CD's 4-5 with trinkets).

Situational: Savage defense, which on slow hitting bosses is exceptional, but on multiple mobs and fast hitting bosses very avg.

If you are a competent tank it will be rare you suffer from threat issues as a bear, I avg. 7-12k tps on practically every encounter and this places me marginally behind our pally tank and ahead of any warrior tank/Dk tank I generally run with. Yes, Pally tanks certainly have more control over their threat and better burst, but druids perform adequetly.

As for dmg parses if you bother to take a look u will notice on 90% of fights druids are generally at the very bottom for practically any encounter, if your healers are having trouble healing bears there is another issue at work, a druids dmg mitigation can simply not be beat, if your talking about avoidance however then yes druids would certainly not be your first choice.

A well geared bear can expect to see 30k+ armor, 45-50% dodge/avoidance (equal crit), nearly 100% uptime on Savage Defence (mitigating nearly every attack be some 2200+ dmg), 3000+dps, and 55-60k HP.

Take from all this what you will. I'll add that nothing beats having a druid as your third tank, where s/he can go cat and belt out 5k extra dps for your raid, innervate on the dot every 3 mins, brez and save a wipe or be a pro bile tank on BoN :-). And that to finish off is where a bear's avg. tanking rotation (which can be boring) and limited (no less then a pallies) tank utility is made up by our flexibility as a whole.

HF with ur bear.

[Kshar]

In all honesty (?), if you are having rage issues at the start (or anytime during) a fight DUE TO LACK OF BOSS HITS (ie you just dodged your 10th consecutive attack in a row) just cut out maul from your rotation or pop berserk. Yes it will lower your threat, but I've found once I get aggro, I don't loose it (exceptions on gimmic fights: Hodir/Vez...).

As for OTing, if you are using maul instead of your reg attacks, and then complaining that you ran out of rage, those abilities are called rage dumps for a reason. Just because DK's and Pally don't deal with rage, doesn't mean they don't loose threat as an OT (I know dks loose rune strike (need to dodge for that to proc I think), not sure on pally, but I think at least part of their threat comes from mobs hitting them).

Pally = mana regen issues if not getting hit/avoiding.

[FamilyGoat]

Pally = mana regen issues if not getting hit/avoiding.

Thanks, I didn't know if that got changed or not (mana back from heals right?, but only heals that actually heal not overheal?)

[Treefinger]

Good luck with your bear!

Some side notes from me as a full-time raid bear with a full-time raid pally as partner is that we don't really need to tweak who's tanking what very much. We've got equivalent gear, approx the same tps. I think I've got a bit more dps (around 10-20% more while tanking the same), while my partner takes a bit more consistent damage.

I'm usually off-tanking since I can do some nifty stuff in combat (combat res, innervate, cat dps) if I'm not harassed by a boss.

When I have trouble, it's with ranged threat generation on several targets. The solution here is getting stuck in quickly and apply a maul/mangle/swipe, or having misdirect help.

Important stuff for me when tanking is keeping the rotation, and using my CD:s (barkskin, regen, trinkets, berserk, etc). Pretty basic stuff, but makes a world of difference.

Cheers,
Hornflower of Scarshield Legion

[Leafre]

Druid tanking
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ard&n=Moneohtu

My druid tank.

3 simple rules on druid tanking.
1. Stack stamina, not AGI.
A lot of druids (myself included) make the mistake of stacking agility to tank in their early tanking days. As you start to raid more and more you start to realise that dodge tends to matter less and less when you have 50, potentially 60, thousand health. Even grand crusader, the bosses only generally hit for 10, 15k. Sure, a hit that you dodge does 0 damage, but if you don't have the health to soak up the hits when they come you are gonna be really spikey and unpredictable for healers.

2. Expertise, expertise, expertise
Speaking of spikey and unpredictable. Make sure you're ATLEAST 7% expertise. Parry haste is not your friend, and if you're catching a lot of parries you're gonna go down like a two dollar whore.

3. PVP = PVE.

A LOT of people don't realise that some of the PVP gear (read - relentless gladiator's belt of triumph) is better than an awful lot of items available for tanking druids. Sure, resilience isn't worth shit, but you tell me where you can find another belt you can outfit to give you 175 stamina that's as easy to get as a PVP belt. We are the only tank who can get away with this shit. Just don't sack your expertise or hit cap and you'll be fine.

I would not listen to a druid tank who carries around a Naxx10 staff in tier9+ content.

[arel00]

Druid tanking
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ard&n=Moneohtu

My druid tank.

3 simple rules on druid tanking.
1. Stack stamina, not AGI.
A lot of druids (myself included) make the mistake of stacking agility to tank in their early tanking days. As you start to raid more and more you start to realise that dodge tends to matter less and less when you have 50, potentially 60, thousand health. Even grand crusader, the bosses only generally hit for 10, 15k. Sure, a hit that you dodge does 0 damage, but if you don't have the health to soak up the hits when they come you are gonna be really spikey and unpredictable for healers.

2. Expertise, expertise, expertise
Speaking of spikey and unpredictable. Make sure you're ATLEAST 7% expertise. Parry haste is not your friend, and if you're catching a lot of parries you're gonna go down like a two dollar whore.

3. PVP = PVE.

A LOT of people don't realise that some of the PVP gear (read - relentless gladiator's belt of triumph) is better than an awful lot of items available for tanking druids. Sure, resilience isn't worth shit, but you tell me where you can find another belt you can outfit to give you 175 stamina that's as easy to get as a PVP belt. We are the only tank who can get away with this shit. Just don't sack your expertise or hit cap and you'll be fine.

Lol.
DPS enchant on your head, sub-par and unenchanted cloak, 18sta on gloves, sup-par and wrongly enchanted weapon.

You're pretty bold in suggesting people wrong stuff when your situation is like that. I'd try to learn more about druid tanking if I were you, especially before making such posts. Especially when you're contradicting yourself.
A DPS enchant for a EH-crazy tank? Suuure.
Static agility instead of Mongoose or Blood Draining? Suuure.
Not bothered getting a decent tank cloak, or a decent tanking weapon? Suuure.
And don't talk about bad luck dude, In between Naxx25, Ulduar both versions, TotC all versions, you have a lot of chances for a new weapon. Hell, even TotC 5men heroic gives you a chance on a daily basis.

Plus, it's extremely funny that you're advising toward stamina stacking, which is useful only on TotGC 25 and in a couple of Ulduar 25 hardmodes, and thus shouldn't be done by ANYONE before they reach that progression.
Considered you haven't done any of them, I wonder, why do you stack stamina? Feel like you need to inflate your EPEEN with big HP numbers? Because with your stats and the content you're doing, being an EH tank is so completely wrong it's funny.

[exochaft]

Pally = mana regen issues if not getting hit/avoiding.

Pally tank should have Divine Plea up at all times and it should never drop (thanx to Guarded by the Light). I've only seen a prot pally go oom because DP dropped or they were OTing for so long that they never took damage for an extended period of time. There's no law against using Seal of Wisdom if the boss isn't focused on you, either.

[FamilyGoat]

sub-par and unenchanted cloak

While I will give you the unenchanted part, the cloak is fine. Outside of ToC (of which I have YET to win one) the other tanking cloaks aren't a whole hell of alot better. (Some yes, but I never saw one drop that wasn't much better for one of the other tanks). The weapon is just sad though...

[kalky]

In all honesty (?), if you are having rage issues at the start (or anytime during) a fight DUE TO LACK OF BOSS HITS (ie you just dodged your 10th consecutive attack in a row) just cut out maul from your rotation or pop berserk. Yes it will lower your threat, but I've found once I get aggro, I don't loose it (exceptions on gimmic fights: Hodir/Vez...).

As for OTing, if you are using maul instead of your reg attacks, and then complaining that you ran out of rage, those abilities are called rage dumps for a reason. Just because DK's and Pally don't deal with rage, doesn't mean they don't loose threat as an OT (I know dks loose rune strike (need to dodge for that to proc I think), not sure on pally, but I think at least part of their threat comes from mobs hitting them).

Hello there, long time lurker first time poster...

@FamilyGoat
On which fight (other than Koralon) you need to keep up tps with MT? Even there you have meteor strikes that will pump up your rage bar...other than that just use enrage in between... I have no problems whatsoever to compete with dps after taunt (nice example is heroic beasts which is dps race), just build up 5 lacerate stacks while waiting for your taunt turn, keep them up, keep mangle up and macroed maul+everything ahoy after taunt.

And rune strike comes after you parry attack

P.S. in case you doubt my credibility as bear tank: clicky clicky

@Anathema
Still no excuse for not enchanting it with agility I understand bad luck with drops but even in Ulduar (25) you can find better cloak. As for weapon, go go grind Onyxia (10 or 25, both of them are by far better then what you have and they will be great upgrade for you).

[Cheezee]

I actually still use that cloak when tanking Anub hard mode. It has nature resist on it. lol

[getefix]

Druid tanking
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ard&n=Moneohtu

My druid tank.

3 simple rules on druid tanking.
1. Stack stamina, not AGI.
A lot of druids (myself included) make the mistake of stacking agility to tank in their early tanking days. As you start to raid more and more you start to realise that dodge tends to matter less and less when you have 50, potentially 60, thousand health. Even grand crusader, the bosses only generally hit for 10, 15k. Sure, a hit that you dodge does 0 damage, but if you don't have the health to soak up the hits when they come you are gonna be really spikey and unpredictable for healers.

2. Expertise, expertise, expertise
Speaking of spikey and unpredictable. Make sure you're ATLEAST 7% expertise. Parry haste is not your friend, and if you're catching a lot of parries you're gonna go down like a two dollar whore.

3. PVP = PVE.

A LOT of people don't realise that some of the PVP gear (read - relentless gladiator's belt of triumph) is better than an awful lot of items available for tanking druids. Sure, resilience isn't worth shit, but you tell me where you can find another belt you can outfit to give you 175 stamina that's as easy to get as a PVP belt. We are the only tank who can get away with this shit. Just don't sack your expertise or hit cap and you'll be fine.

I disagree with most of this.
It's your job as a tank to make yourself less spikey. Use your barkskin responsibly. Keep Survival Instincts close at hand in case you dip to 20% for more than half a second. You have trinkets, you should use them. There's also purple gems that give you agility and stamina.

The only thing worse than spikey damage is taking more damage than your healers can handle. It's not like they sit there and wait for you to take a hit before they heal you. They're (supposed to be) healing you and when you don't take damage it's overhealing. If they don't run oom then it doesn't matter. If you have enough health to survive 3 consecutive hits in a row then you have enough health. Going without a heal for 6 seconds is inexcusable.

Tanking encounters in ToGC 25 with 50k hp is very easy. If your healers can't keep you alive then they probably can't run from icehowl.

If you start loading yourself up in PVP gear stacked full of stamina, you'll be lucky to hold threat against a lvl 70. Having high threat will get you a lot of respect from other tanks.

Expertise is good, yes. Most gear with expertise on it makes very good tanking gear. It's slightly more important than hit. A lot of tanking jewelery and cloaks have expertise on it so grab them.

As for your GM, he's right about paladins. They are amazing and very easy to heal. A lot of guilds use Paladin MTs right now. But Druids are right alongside with them. We have high armor, a shield that seems to be scaling faster than warriors or paladins, and we still sit at high HP without gemming full stamina. I've seen Warriors get wrecked on a lot of fights now and they have very weak threat compared to DKs, druids, and paladins. In fact, the warrior forums are full of Fury threads and very few prot threads.

[Gigikent]

The only place where you need to go for a lot of stamina is Ulduar25 hard modes and ToGC25 at the moment. If you are not doing thouse 2 things, do not go for full stamina, avoidance is a lot more important.

@Anathema: listen to what others said, and change some of thouse enchants you have. Also get a new weapon man, that is awfull for current content.

It is a common mistake that happens all the time right now when people simply take something like EJ discussions as the Bible and do exacly what they say. While thosue discussions are pretty much very informative and correct, people tend to miss something very very important: thouse discussions are ment for the hardest content most of the times, they refer to extremly hard bosses, cutting edge progress in some cases. Only if you are at the top of the progress ladder do you listen to their advices when it comes to extrems like gemming full stamina for example. Do NOT take the full stamina advice like a trend or anything, it is just something that happens for hard core progression, in hard modes.

This is exacly like in the case of feral cats. A lot of people have no ideea still why EJ and other theorycrafters say to gem full ArP yet they do it. And the result? - A lot of people running arround in Naxx25 or sub-par Ulduar gear gemming full ArP while they have below 45% crit unbuffed for example (at best). Will they do the DPS they think they should? Ofc not. Then they come on forums such as MMO and complain they can't DPs and ask for advices. This is just one example.