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  1. #181

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression



  2. #182

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by webzagar
    God forbid they actually make it challenging and give a sense of urgency to not screw up!

    First, you get limited attempts on the last bosses of the 3 final wings + Arthas.

    If you run out of attempts on one of those guys you still have all the other (non final) bosses in each wing to kill.

    You gain more attempts over time, (read each week you'll probably gain 2 or 3 more tries) So in a couple months you will have 20+ attempts plus raid buffs + better gear.

    The only thing this hurts is the PUG community. But since blizz is putting a stronger emphasis on guild leveling in Cata, this kind of 'bring who you know and your A-Game' progression is what is needed. This will weed out the bads and force people to find guilds and learn to work together.

    More time for alts is a good thing imo.

    Personally I wish they would tie in the opening of gates to dailies like they did with Sunwell and make it into a server event when a new wing opened.

    And those saying they won't have shit to do in this game:

    You'll have time to do other stuff in the game instead of raiding. In the last week I've made 10,000 gold just having fun with the auction house and finding neat isolated places to farm for 90 minutes at a time. Things I didn't have time for when I was raiding 5 nights a week. Work on achievements, do Ulduar hardmodes. OS 3D. Naxx Undying. 40 exalted reps. Find ways to challenge yourself!
    How can they make it challenging when you only have 5 attempts per week on the boss?

    That sounds to me more like they're limiting the challenge of the fight, because if it's too hard, people'll blow through the attempts week after week, get frustrated, post tons of whining, and cause Blizzard to nerf the fight.

    Artificial limitations on attempts, especially when coupled with existent disconnect bugs (we still have players, for example, that disconnect every time when Thorim is pulled, or at certain points in Anub'arak and Onyxia) is not a good way of promoting challenge and urgency.

    Good way of promoting challenge and urgency are things like hard modes and speed kills. The limited attempts mechanic is just rife with ways that players can be screwed by things completely out of their control, such as latency and disconnects.

  3. #183

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by Niroshi
    Casual doesn't mean bad, man. Casual means you have less time to spend on the game than others, I can believe there are guilds with ToGC25 cleared as casual guilds. Gear is a non-issue as Blizzard has thrown it at us in this expansion, so assuming people know how to press 4 buttons on any class DPS/Tanking/Healing isn't an issue.
    Never said casual was bad, man. Like I said, I want to see proof of guild that consider themselves casual that have Anub 25 GC down.

    If people actually stopped to realize just how fast time flies, the gating thing isn't going to be an issue for very long at all. Hardcore progression guilds will still get their "firsts" in because they'll be the first ones to figure out the proper strategies+have the right people to no screw up, best connections, all that stuff. Slower guilds will progress slower, it all really will not matter in 3 weeks and you know what, those 3 weeks will fly by before you know it anyway. Just look at ToC, it's already been cleared, hardmodes have already been completed.

    It really is not going to be nearly as bad as people QQ it is. And if you really are sitting at your computer whining about waiting for the next wing to open via the gating instead of doing something constructive with your life, you really ought to rethink your current situation and future. You just make yourself look like an idiot and a bitch QQing on a forum about something that isn't even out yet.
    "I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?"

    -The Doctor, Voyage of the Damned

  4. #184

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    sounds good
    LET YOUR BIRD EAT ITS BEAK

  5. #185

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    I suppose the only good thing I see is that we can do the first wing without worrying about attempts...

  6. #186
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    All your tears are belong to me, all posters souls after this post will become mine.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  7. #187

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by webzagar
    God forbid they actually make it challenging and give a sense of urgency to not screw up!

    First, you get limited attempts on the last bosses of the 3 final wings + Arthas.

    If you run out of attempts on one of those guys you still have all the other (non final) bosses in each wing to kill.

    You gain more attempts over time, (read each week you'll probably gain 2 or 3 more tries) So in a couple months you will have 20+ attempts plus raid buffs + better gear.

    The only thing this hurts is the PUG community. But since blizz is putting a stronger emphasis on guild leveling in Cata, this kind of 'bring who you know and your A-Game' progression is what is needed. This will weed out the bads and force people to find guilds and learn to work together.

    More time for alts is a good thing imo.

    Personally I wish they would tie in the opening of gates to dailies like they did with Sunwell and make it into a server event when a new wing opened.

    And those saying they won't have shit to do in this game:

    You'll have time to do other stuff in the game instead of raiding. In the last week I've made 10,000 gold just having fun with the auction house and finding neat isolated places to farm for 90 minutes at a time. Things I didn't have time for when I was raiding 5 nights a week. Work on achievements, do Ulduar hardmodes. OS 3D. Naxx Undying. 40 exalted reps. Find ways to challenge yourself!
    And do I enjoy most of that crap? No I dont
    Ive cleared Ulduar HMs and got Tribute to Insanity, server first 10man Naxx and 25man Naxx becouse thats what I enjoy in this game, raiding
    Trying to FORCE anyone who likes to raid more then 1h a week without failing on every encounter to do farm shit like achivements, that doesnt give you anything(even entertainment) is retarded
    Shinzy 85 Hunter - Ress Plz / Shindai 85 Warrior / Relgy 85 Deathknight / Szink x2 85 Druid / Duran 85 Warlock
    Relgzy 85 Paladin - Ress Plz / Shinko 85 Rogue / Relgzy 85 Shaman / Idhrenion 85 Priest / Shyryn 85 Mage

  8. #188

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamless
    How can they make it challenging when you only have 5 attempts per week on the boss?

    That sounds to me more like they're limiting the challenge of the fight, because if it's too hard, people'll blow through the attempts week after week, get frustrated, post tons of whining, and cause Blizzard to nerf the fight.

    Artificial limitations on attempts, especially when coupled with existent disconnect bugs (we still have players, for example, that disconnect every time when Thorim is pulled, or at certain points in Anub'arak and Onyxia) is not a good way of promoting challenge and urgency.

    Good way of promoting challenge and urgency are things like hard modes and speed kills. The limited attempts mechanic is just rife with ways that players can be screwed by things completely out of their control, such as latency and disconnects.
    Thank you for showing the real problem behind the limited attempts.

  9. #189

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Really I dont see any problem with the gating system. It basically allows people to get the appropriate gear before moving on, well at least a bit. It does spread the content over time, but really... who wants the content cleared straight away in a week. It gives you something to look forward to, which no doubt is what blizzard wants, but im pretty sure its got to be what you want aswell. Nothing to look forward to = game quit (loss for both sides).

    It definately seems more thought out than the other previous waiting systems, as if its actually been thought out, though alot of you are insistent that any system like this is intended as a kick in the face to the hardcore guilds. It is in fact doing a favour for the hardcore guilds, they are not going to have to wait up all night for the patch to release, just to be lagged out by everyone trying to log in. Ofc this may happen on the week when the hardmodes can be started, but it willl be less pronounced as it is only hardcore raiders desperate to log in. The system allows heroics - which are really what the race is going to be about - to be released all at once. With everyone who want to compete being prepared for it. And have a real race.
    Ofc the 5 attempts system doesnt sound great, but it provides a challenge and causes guilds who try and get through by just attempting fights over and over again until they get it right by force, to step back and think about the fights a little...

    People need to stop finding faults and think of the good points, blizzard are really just trying to make a better game, this reallly isnt going to get complaints from the majority. And dont try and suggest us forum goers are the majority... (oh and dont try and suggest we are all the most hardcore raiders as pretty much everyone acts (also dont try and make the point that you are a hardcore raider, way to be annoying))

    (additionally some people seem to have forgotten that all the buffs that are going to be applied as the time passes, are entirely OPTIONAL, thus you see blizzard learning from their mistakes... well until actual nerfs come along but there should be less)

    All I see here is blizzards design getting better as time goes on.
    And to think I came here for civilised discussion...

  10. #190

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Another positive thing is, after the initial patch is out they still have more time to tune the remaining 8 encounters and the hard modes and those will be more enjoyable when released.

    A year ago I would have raged about this announcement. Now I love it. I would have gotten super stressed if we needed to raid 22 hours a week in 25 man to clear as much as possible and then do the same on 10 man on weekend just to keep our server ranking and reputation.

  11. #191

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by xxpoohbearxx

    lol'd really hard

  12. #192

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    After all, what the hell is your problem with so called no lifers? If they love this game let them play. Everywhere in life you're better if you take more time to improve your skills/knowledge etc. If they have fun playing 10h+ a day and 7 days a week where's the problem? We're generation INTERNET, many persons play with friends, just chat etc. It's life after all. Forget word combinations like real life, everything you do IS real. You really think its better to chill around with your friend at 6PM and drink bear or do shit? What's up with all of you? Let people live their damn life how they prefer to live it. It does not have to be your business. Not anyone is interested in being a playboy like you who has a life (can't say this with a serious face :). And to give an example. I am chilling in WoW often, online every day of the week. But i also go dance an club a little bit on monday , thursday and saturday. If some one does not like clubbing or chilling with friend in a shopping center ,like you definitely do, why the hell do you have to QQ about them? Wtf is up with you?


  13. #193
    Dreadlord roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    I like this set-up. Being the server-first to beat ICC will actually mean something, as will actually killing Arthas.

    Some things people should realize:
    1 - This 5+ attempt rule only applies to certain bosses. You can wipe as many times as you want at, say, Lord Marrowgar and the Gunship fight.
    2 - Raid leaders can switch raid difficulties between fights. If you wipe 3-4 times on one of these bosses, switch to Regular mode to clear him. On the next limited boss, you can switch back to Heroic.

  14. #194

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by Saidear
    The hardcore raiding guilds initially complained that raiding was too easy, after blasting through the content in weeks. Now that they can't race through it wearing diapers and living off Red Bull, and have a gated system restricting how fast they can progress.. they complain it will take too long. Sometimes you can't win for trying.
    You can, but Blizzard isn't prepared to implement it for whatever reason.

    The content is too easy? Then it should be made harder. We all know (and some of us utterly HATE) that Blizzard eventually nerfs everything to the utter ground so that people who are bad at the game (whether Hardcore or Casual) get to see everything. I don't mean "you failed at Vezax once and wiped the raid" bad; I mean "You jumped in and out of the fires on Shade of Aran for 3 months after the raid leader personally told you before every attempt not to do it" bad.

    The content takes too long? That's because Blizzard is artificially making the content last long Because It Isn't Difficult Or Challenging Enough To Last That Long Against Extremely Hardcore Players. This is a fault of their design, nothing else.

    Content should be made much harder so that cockblock situations (gates, resistance gear specific fights, restricted number of attempts) are not necessary.

    In short: Make it less forgiving and keep luck to a minimum.

    Doomhammer EU

  15. #195
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Your souls are tasty
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  16. #196

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamless
    How can they make it challenging when you only have 5 attempts per week on the boss?

    5 attempts the first week. When the next wing opens you get 10 attempts total. Then when the third wing opens you have 15. By the time the third wing opens Putricide will be easy, and you will still have 15 attempts for the other 2.

    It's seriously incentive to learn the fights and not dick around. If it makes you feel better, then think of it as perma death if you fail too many times. Oh sorry, no loot this week. Try harder next time! Hey look! No more free epics.

  17. #197

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    If you think the QQ is epic already, wait until patch day with the severe lag/disconnects/loading screen boss. Add that to the 5 attempts in the first few weeks and you have the WoW forums imploding!

  18. #198

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    I don't care about the attempts, it's the "We'll release wings when we feel like it" that I don't like. We're not getting a wing each week, we're getting a new wing whenever the hell Blizzard thinks it's ok to release the next wing. I don't want Triumph badges, I have nothing left to spend them on, and I've geared up TWO freaken characters in full ToC loot. The only reason I log in now is to spend 2 hours in ToC (1 hour for each character).

    Hell, this even delays Cataclysm because we're doubtfully going to see it until 5-6 months after the Lich King is dead. With them saying "you might not have a lot of attempts until WEEK AND MONTHS after the Lich King is added", you can freaken guarantee there's no new expansion until at least this time next year.

  19. #199

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    Ok, I'm not a "Hardcore" and I likely won't be trying any hard modes for quite a while.... but WTF? They won't allow hard modes till Arthas is defeated, and Arthas won't be available for over a month? Like I said, I'm no where near hardcore, but this seems like a definite smack to the face of the people who are. They *have* to run nothing but regular modes for over a month before they even get to *try* any of the hard modes? I mean, the whole point of the hard modes was supposed to be to let the better guilds have a greater challenge. Seems to me that if they *really* want a challenge, let them just go straight to hard modes. Why not? It doesn't hurt the rest of us to let those with too much time on their hands beat their heads against difficult content.

    Personally I'd advocate taking any gate off of the hard mode. Release hard mode and regular mode of each wing at the same time. Let the people that bitch that "beating the same boss with more HPs isn't epic enough" go straight to HC. They lose the right to bitch about how easy everything is, and the rest of us are completely unaffected. I'm not going into hard mode till I'm well and truly confident in my ability to beat regular mode, but I don't see any reason to hold back those who are good enough, or stupid enough, to try.

  20. #200

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

    this is some of the worst instance planning I have ever seen. gg blizz

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