ICC attempt limit, bad for guilds?

[rkma]

If I understand this correctly:

"After a raid has exhausted their attempts for the week, the Ashen Verdict must withdraw their support and the four most difficult bosses all despawn and become unavailable for the week. The limited attempt system is a feature of both Normal and Heroic difficulty."

It sounds like normal and heroic SHARE an attempt pool, which seems very very bad for moderate raiding guilds.

In Ulduar, we could wipe on hard mode attempts for a night, and once we gave up we could still do normal. But in ICC, if you run out of attempts on heroic, does that mean you can't even clear the instance on normal? Isn't that punishing people for trying?

Anyone else really worried about this?

[Ryoflash]

They dont just stating that both will be using that system. I'm impartial bout it because mathematically you'll be getting fair amount of tries to down four bosses that by time are at them should know what to do. People just are giving it way more grief then it will come out to be.

[Talisin]

Yea pretty sure they mean that both normal AND hardmodes will have certain attempts. Not a shared pool. I also don't know what to think about the pool of attempts. It can go both ways really. Just depends on how difficult the bosses actually end up being.

[Deleted]

It sounds like normal and heroic SHARE an attempt pool.

Doesnt sound like that to me, ''The limited attempt system is a feature of both Normal and Heroic difficulty'' wheres the hint that its shared? All I can derive is that 25man normal will have limited attempts... And so will 25man HC?

Anyways, even if you were correct in your assumption, it would suck balls.

[rkma]

They dont just stating that both will be using that system. I'm impartial bout it because mathematically you'll be getting fair amount of tries to down four bosses that by time are at them should know what to do. People just are giving it way more grief then it will come out to be.

Yes, but won't this discourage most guilds from even attempting heroic? Ulduar guilds were already having trouble committing to hard modes, this appears to make it worse.

It already costs time and repair bills, but now it can cost you the entire instance. No one wants to risk losing big.

[rkma]

Yea pretty sure they mean that both normal AND hardmodes will have certain attempts. Not a shared pool. I also don't know what to think about the pool of attempts. It can go both ways really. Just depends on how difficult the bosses actually end up being.

I hope so. If they aren't pooled, then the system seems okay.

[Ryoflash]

Yes, but won't this discourage most guilds from even attempting heroic? Ulduar guilds were already having trouble committing to hard modes, this appears to make it worse.

It already costs time and repair bills, but now it can cost you the entire instance. No one wants to risk losing big.

Possibly but the thing is You have 15 attempts by the time hardmode comes out to down one of the last four wing bosses. Lets say you don't make it ok go learn all the rest. Next reset come back and try again this time downing in 3, now you have 12 to try another boss. Welcome to progression it'll still cost you the same amount of gold even if it wasn't limited. Now its just a matter of who you kill which week. How I look at it anyways.

[Lolkaysea]

Sounds to me like they're not shared. So it's not really that big a deal. Sounds like incentive for those 8-10 people in your 25man raid who just don't want to their jobs to, well... Do their jobs.

[Ryoflash]

Also What I quoted bout the math is wrong. The next time you step in to do hardmodes you'll have more then 15 attempts to down the boss you've been practicing on. So you should be able to down them with the ability to move on to the next with 3-18 attempts or so. And thats only if you fear having to wipe to learn the fights. Some guilds may go in learn quick and kill within 5 attempts per.

[bals]

I think it's good for cutting edge raid guilds because it makes the world first more prestigious (can't just raid for 20+ hours a day for a week to try to just roll over it). Same time it sucks if someone gets a random dc or something dumb happens.

I think it really sucks more for casual guilds farther down the line (who will probably be trying it months or so after the world first), especially with the new raid-extend feature (what's the point of extending without any more tries?)

edit: on the subject of them being shared, I did not read it that way. Just that they both have separate attempts.

[sleekit]

to me that doesn't read like they share.

not that it matters much because you have to complete IC on normal before you can do a hardmode so no one is going to be doing any hard modes for a looong while and by that time the number of attempts you get will have increased and you'll most likely have nailed most of the encounters on normal because i get the feeling you will have to.

[Kyul]

I think I remember reading that you can't attempt hard modes without having killed Arthas on normal mode.. this gives people plenty of practice before being able to attempt hard modes.

Also, I think it's a good idea. It will make the raid leaders have to put some thought into who they invite.. and people will actually have to be some-what geared?

This raid will mark the last raid in WOTLK... meaning the hard mode fights will be dropping some serious rewards.. what is the point of giving out rewards if people don't have to work towards it? Where's the fun in getting a reward that you didn't actually work for?

I'm hoping that ICC will bring some serious challenges..

[Cheevo]

Everyone realizes this is for the four "keeper" like bosses of ICC right; not all of the bosses in ICC, nor will it ever be for all of them. It wont be as game breaking as people think.

[xebtria]

it's just an excuse for them making the "keepers" not very hard. because even if you have those limited attempts, you should be able to see the content. it's more like a "you cant run out of teh fire, you are not supposed to meet teh lick kingz! but if you can, hes a cakewalk 'cause he sucks balls.

[Sanguissa]

They are not shared, because that would mean you would be saved to both normal and HC whenever you kill boss in one of these. Which would eliminate the pugs and most of peoples would always have f**ked up saves for one of difficulty in guilds.

[Anca]

They are not shared, because that would mean you would be saved to both normal and HC whenever you kill boss in one of these. Which would eliminate the pugs and most of peoples would always have f**ked up saves for one of difficulty in guilds.

You aren't saved for heroic or normal, you're saved to that instance regardless; heroic is on a per boss basis inside the same save.
If you've gotten saved with a pug to the bosses before the 4 who, for those of you unclear on it, do share those 15 attempts between the 4 of them, then what does it matter? You're already saved outside of your guild run.
Again, heroic is not a seperate save/instance like trial of the crusader/trial of the grand crusader.

As for the topic at hand.
I dislike there being limited attempts between them, especially when it comes to heroic.
Even after downing them, it's unlikely you can one-shot professor putricide, sindragosa and blood queen lana'thel on heroic, which means you're likely to have a lot of attempts down the drain before you can try the Lich King on heroic.
Also, it does mean if you use all your attempts failing to beat one of them on heroic, there's no normal version for you to do, so it seems for a while we'll have to save that last attempt to do them all on normal so some upgrades to do the heroics can be acquired.

The one plus is, it's very clear Arthas is going to be tuned on heroic for heroic gear.
On top of that, all the bosses before them have no limited attempts on heroic, so this to me encourages downing all he earlier bosses on heroic to progress within the raid on heroic difficulty.

Normal difficulty wise, you have a few weeks to have all but sindragosa and the lich king well practiced, so putricide and lana'thel should be one-shottable by the time they're released so I don't think it will have much impact.

What I dislike most however is that I absolutely will have to look up and watch every detail of these fights, more specifically, Arthas' fight, which is the one fight I wanted to witness first hand on, say, 10man normal at least.
Blizzard's attempt system encourages what is a normal practice but it will ruin the Lich King fight for me.

[jazza23]

it's just an excuse for them making the "keepers" not very hard. because even if you have those limited attempts, you should be able to see the content. it's more like a "you cant run out of teh fire, you are not supposed to meet teh lick kingz! but if you can, hes a cakewalk 'cause he sucks balls.

I don't think it's anything about making the keepers easy. They stated once the place has completely opened we'll have 15 attempts in total with the Keepers + Arthas. It is making it so the High-End Raiding Guilds can't wipe endlessly on bosses to get world firsts. And them making everyone clear the keepers before attempting Arthas for the week is more proof. You must not wipe on keepers or else you get less attempts for the week on the Arthas. Which slows World First Progress.