At a loss.

[Derlan]

Improved cleave. It is a bad talent, but what do you do when 90% of your raids fulfill all the shout buffs better and for a longer duration than even talenting into them? There are 12 talent points worth of warrior shout improving talents, so i guess my question is this, assuming you NEVER have to use your shouts due to ret pallies, blood pact, etc etc, where do you put those talents so they aren't functionally useless.

[Hakto]

into imp cleave it is far from a bad talent.

[Quenios]

I dont see Improved cleave as a bad talent.

Northrend Beasts - Cleave on snobolds so u still get dmg on gormok while getting them off ur healers.

Lord Jaraxxus - Cleaving Mistress and infernals

Anub'arak - Cleaving the adds

[Enders]

Imp cleave with the glyph is a one-way ticket to first on the meters on any add fight, and there are lots of add fights

[Derlan]

By a bad talent i mean it is suboptimal for the point investiture. It was made better by the increase in base cleave damage for sure, and currently im playing with it to try to see exactly how much of a dps increase it really is. Its somewhat less than satisfying though.

I suppose ill just have to suck it up until the cataclysm talent revamp.

[Hakto]

suboptimal for point investure yet your other options are shout bonuses which you never use, interesting logic.

[BaddyMcBad]

It's crazy-awesome especially due to ToGC having so much AoE-ability.
NRB - Snobolds/Gormok
Jaraxxus - Mistress/Jaraxxus
Twins - If your raid tanks them together
Anub - When the adds pop up

[Predor]

Imp cleave + Cleave glyph = godly for bosses like Anub ToGC 25 man or anything with consistent adds. I take it over shouts any day.

[Master Guns]

Uhhh, why do you think Imp Cleave is a bad talent? It's key for fights like Anub 25 TOGC. Cleave and WW are my #1 damage done abilities on those fights, as are every warriors. It's crucial for raid DPS.

[Dragall]

what do you do when 90% of your raids fulfill all the shout buffs better and for a longer duration than even talenting into them?

Commanding shout would like to have a word with you.

[Alianthos]

Improved cleave. It is a bad talent, but what do you do when 90% of your raids fulfill all the shout buffs better and for a longer duration than even talenting into them? There are 12 talent points worth of warrior shout improving talents, so i guess my question is this, assuming you NEVER have to use your shouts due to ret pallies, blood pact, etc etc, where do you put those talents so they aren't functionally useless.

Lol.

You never really gave a look into those shouts did you ? Commanding precense + Glyph give you some extra HP, a LOT more than Blood pact only. Totally worthy.

Ret pallies for AP, right. But still, if there is only 1 pally in your raid, well he can use BoK on everyone and you STILL got the improved Battle Shout which equals the AP blessing.

I won't even talk about improved Demo shout, which will immensely help your raids in though fights (think Gormok).

Oh and, improved Cleave is imba.

Any questions ?

[Battousai]

Eh, Blood pact and Commanding don't stack, and improved Commanding is only a small upgrade from it. If you raid needs teh extra survivbility of ~900 health (i think) ok...but I think the extra dps those crucial "cleave phases" is probably more important."

One might even argue you save more raid health by doing that much more damage and killing the boss that much faster by taking Imp Cleave.

[Battousai]

Lol.

You never really gave a look into those shouts did you ? Commanding precense + Glyph give you some extra HP, a LOT more than Blood pact only. Totally worthy.

Ret pallies for AP, right. But still, if there is only 1 pally in your raid, well he can use BoK on everyone and you STILL got the improved Battle Shout which equals the AP blessing.

I won't even talk about improved Demo shout, which will immensely help your raids in though fights (think Gormok).

Oh and, improved Cleave is imba.

Any questions ?

Thought he said his raid had shouts covered...I took that to include Demo Commanding and Battle. All those are covered in my raid without me.

I would hardly call Imp Commandings health boost a LOT more than Blood Pact.

[serif]

strange question.

i have these talents here that if i spec into them will be worthless, or i can put points into this slightly less amazing talent that i'll still use.

hmmmm....

what to do?

oh, i know, maybe i'll just not spend those talent points, save them for cata.

/lol

[Alianthos]

Battousai, i've got to desagree with you here.

Check my spec and my glyphs :
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ta...anthos&group=2

Now, you see that i've got booming voice, imp cleave and commanding presence.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47982 so 1300 extra hp

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47440 so 2255 extra hp (+900 as you said)
now with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12861 it's 2255 + 0.25 * 2255 so around 2820 (+1500 which is a LOT. 100% more. 150 stam)
now add http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12835 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49084 it gives you a 6min +2820 PV.

And, you can keep the cleave, as in my spec. You can also choose to replace http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12861 with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12879 for hard spanking boss.

That's how a warrior should help his raid. Imo

PS : and I'm not sure OP referred to warrior shouts. He was more likely refering to spells replacing our shouts (blood pact and pally's blessings).

Edit : forgot one talent in Lock's tree, +30% blood pact. Total of 1720 hp, improved. Still, +100 stam DOES matter.

[Battousai]

I'm hardly saying that the warrior doesn't bring his/her share of quality buffs.

Imp Demo is a very nice (and in heroic modes neccessary) little reduction or boost to effective health on the tanks. Imp Commanding Presence is useful, not needed but useful. Imp T-clap is a GREAT talent for add phases btw (good damage...great debuff especially when we're talking 5+ adds). Imp Battle shout is neccessary if not Imp BoM.

Our shouts are great...little short in duration I'll admit, but great. I've never argued against it.

HOWEVER...

#1...he said his buffs are covered 90% of the time. Now he mentioned Blood Pact so I'm now going to assume hes saying it replaces Commanding. Even the base no talent commanding is better than talented BP by 500 health (its just up all the time without refresh). So we're really not comparing Blood pact to Imp commanding...we're comparing Regular Commanding to Imp commanding. That means you spending 5 points on 600 health...I would hardly call that an effective use of 5 talent points when that's about 1.2% of a ~50K heroic mode tank. You can keep commanding up if its not talented...hell you can put 3/3 Imp Cleave and 2 points into commanding if you wanted to make it 2480 so now we're looking at a nice bit more dps in the most crucial and toughest parts of heroic mode fights...and losing about 340 raid health to do it.

My arguement is saying the extra damage you do could kill the mobs faster preventing more damage on the OT or MT, and it probably does...to the tune of a lot more than 340 more health on the tanks.


That's how a warrior helps his raid....he kills stuff...quickly.

My fury Offspec...(that I never use however...)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Lhbf0...0eRVzAo:MGooz0

Sub Execute Glyph for Cleave on single target fights. Sunder or execute for Heroic strikes on Anub/Twins.

[Alianthos]

we're comparing Regular Commanding to Imp commanding. That means you spending 5 points on 600 health...I would hardly call that an effective use of 5 talent points when that's about 1.2% of a ~50K heroic mode tank. You can keep commanding up if its not talented...hell you can put 3/3 Imp Cleave and 2 points into commanding if you wanted to make it 2480 so now we're looking at a nice bit more dps in the most crucial and toughest parts of heroic mode fights...and losing about 340 raid health to do it.

My arguement is saying the extra damage you do could kill the mobs faster preventing more damage on the OT or MT, and it probably does...to the tune of a lot more than 340 more health on the tanks.

I'm a bit confused. In my own spec i DO have 3/3 imp cleave AND 5/5 commanding presence. How to replace 5/5 commanding presence to get more DPS here (that's where i'm confused) ? Unbrided Wrath ? I'm never rage starved. You seem to suggest that 5/5 CP is wasted if you skip Imp Cleave but it's perfectly possible to have Booming V + Cleave + Commanding P. and still have every other needed talents (execpt Imp Exec, which i find perfectly useless).

[Battousai]

I'm a bit confused. In my own spec i DO have 3/3 imp cleave AND 5/5 commanding presence. How to replace 5/5 commanding presence to get more DPS here (that's where i'm confused) ? Unbrided Wrath ? I'm never rage starved. You seem to suggest that 5/5 CP is wasted if you skip Imp Cleave but it's perfectly possible to have Booming V + Cleave + Commanding P. and still have every other needed talents (execpt Imp Exec, which i find perfectly useless).

Its minor, but every little dps increase helps. UB is meh, as is Imp Execute...but its a dps increase as executes come into play even for fury <20% especially when talented and glyphed. If you have Imp demo covered than Commandings the way to go...but Imp demo is a lot more important that Commanding on heroic modes. It reduces boss melee attacks my a lot more than the difference between Imp and reg Commanding (~600 health). It could be a couple thousand off a 30k swing.

Just modified my last response with my fury Offspec build that I never use but I'd consider it the heroic mode fury spec.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Lhbf0...0eRVzAo:MGooz0

[Alianthos]

mmm Kay, thx

[Dragall]

I think this thread touches on a chronic problem - dps warriors too lazy to put up commanding. It's the best buff in that category - period, and someone in your raid should be running 5/5 commanding presence. If you've got it in raid, mess with your spec however you please.

900 HP is more important than increasing your personal dps imo.