Drums of Heroism/Bloodlust?

[Jonisawsom]

The situationality was from your example where you used those exact numbers and scenario of it being unhealable in the swing/cast/whatever time. I did not mean to make it sound that the health buffs are as important as heroism as they are overall more important to a 10-man geared group, especially while progressing in lesser gear combined with the Icecrown dodge nerf. That was partially bad wording from my side.

Yes, every single ability can make or break a fight for a random group. The problem is where to exactly draw the line in importance. My personal opinion remains that heroism is powerful enough that the effects of using it in content not balanced around it are clear to most progressing groups and because of this groups without it are in a much larger disadvantage than if they were missing another buff like say +3% hit. This also especially notable while progressing and learning the fights where occasional healing and dps checks are more challenging.

Giving heroism/bloodlust to another class has only really one technical problem and one emotional problem. The technical problem comes from arenas where balance would be majorly changed by another source for the buff. This would either require profession item not useable in arena, just slightly longer cooldown to make it unusable in arena or rebalancing of the class receiving the ability. The emotional problem is shamans losing their unique utility which while a valid concern, is bit left in the shadows compared to the effects in 10-man PvE environment. If it's not a carbon copy, I find it hard to imagine shamans losing their class' personality.

Shaman dps is and remains a problem, unless the 3.3 changes bring the class back to shape (haven't exactly familiarized myself with the dps changes), but should not be used as a reasoning for limiting a potential buff to one class. It is another topic of its own.

Fair enough, but if you read my post, I even said the tank example was extreme. The numbers aren't real or exact numbers, but it got the point across that tuning a fight for specific health pools was an issue for Blizz and they felt they had to do something about it. I have to say it again though because you are ignoring it still. BL is THE shaman class ability, much like LoH/bubble are for pallys. You are still talking about it as a buff like kings, which it is not.

You are using the scrolls as an excuse. If you want to go that route, I'll give up my shamans BL if every other class gives up their abilities as well. After all that would then make it "bring the player not the class" as you guys have been describing it no? You'll have all your abilities on scrolls so your raid isn't gimped. Who wants to worry about trying to get the right classes/specs/buffs/debuffs etc into a group anyway, let's just bring everything on scrolls.

While we're at it, let's make all raids look like ToC, but instead of actually fighting, we just walk in and loot the chests. After all it's not fair to require me to group with people to get loot. That would really solve the problem, then we don't even have to worry about spreading buffs or taking away class abilities :.

[Corathor]

Is that really all there is to the shaman class? BL? Without that your nothing?

To be quite honest... Let's look at this for a second...

To all those who say TL;DR.. then you just dont care.. and i don't care that you don't care.. but i'm going to say what im going to say.

Elemental Shamans.. nothing more than a different 'element' that isnt provided by mages.. the only thing unique about elemental shamans is we get a guaranteed crit on LvB.. other than that we spam LB or CL based upon encounter... woopity friggin do.. maybe we get to wind shear once in awhile... but this is nothing that can't be done by a rogue, or a warrior.. provides no where near the dps other classes can, why do you bring one? Elemental Focus? Bring a Boomkin.. why? they provide the same thing.. except that it isnt based upon a proc.. they also bring battle rez.. and just as decent a DPS as an elemental shaman... some might argue that an ele shammy can and has done more.. regardless.. that isnt the point of this discussion.. the point is that elemental shamans dont bring an excessively high dps.. nor a singular buff that is present only to them.

Enhancement Shamans.. yawn? slap slap stormstrike.. slap, lava lash, slap earth shock.. slap slap slap... an extremely boring rotation, nothing more than a gimmicky rogue + magic casting mixture.. doesnt work very well, also again as above doesnt provide nearly the dps other classes can.. same as above.. what does this class provide that others dont? Nothing.. except heroism.. and sub-par DPS..

Restoration Shamans.. decent heals.. i will say that mana regeration for a resto shaman has gotten better.. however.. again the question begs.. what does a resto shaman bring that no other class can? Mana tide? Mana issues aren't near as prevalent in current content.. still an OKAY addition, but no where near as good as some other mana tools currently in the game.

With the additions of Death Knights, and the change to Wisdom/Mana Spring Totem, Shamans have lost damn near every buff that was given by only them.. heroism is just about the last thing shamans have left.. BEFORE any type of heroism/bloodlust is introduced in another form, drums.. or another class having a similar spell.. shamans need more utility.. or something to make them unique again.. the totem idea was cool.. and somewhat well designed a bit clunky but 3.2 (i think it was) made this a bit easier with totem bars, though still a clunky system as you have to redrop totems every 30-40 yards, this is rather annoying, especially when the buffs just aren't worth it.. and can be brought by other classes, and in most cases a slightly better version is brought by other classes.

[draticus]

To be quite honest... Let's look at this for a second...

To all those who say TL;DR.. then you just dont care.. and i don't care that you don't care.. but i'm going to say what im going to say.

Elemental Shamans.. nothing more than a different 'element' that isnt provided by mages.. the only thing unique about elemental shamans is we get a guaranteed crit on LvB.. other than that we spam LB or CL based upon encounter... woopity friggin do.. maybe we get to wind shear once in awhile... but this is nothing that can't be done by a rogue, or a warrior.. provides no where near the dps other classes can, why do you bring one? Elemental Focus? Bring a Boomkin.. why? they provide the same thing.. except that it isnt based upon a proc.. they also bring battle rez.. and just as decent a DPS as an elemental shaman... some might argue that an ele shammy can and has done more.. regardless.. that isnt the point of this discussion.. the point is that elemental shamans dont bring an excessively high dps.. nor a singular buff that is present only to them.

Enhancement Shamans.. yawn? slap slap stormstrike.. slap, lava lash, slap earth shock.. slap slap slap... an extremely boring rotation, nothing more than a gimmicky rogue + magic casting mixture.. doesnt work very well, also again as above doesnt provide nearly the dps other classes can.. same as above.. what does this class provide that others dont? Nothing.. except heroism.. and sub-par DPS..

Restoration Shamans.. decent heals.. i will say that mana regeration for a resto shaman has gotten better.. however.. again the question begs.. what does a resto shaman bring that no other class can? Mana tide? Mana issues aren't near as prevalent in current content.. still an OKAY addition, but no where near as good as some other mana tools currently in the game.

With the additions of Death Knights, and the change to Wisdom/Mana Spring Totem, Shamans have lost damn near every buff that was given by only them.. heroism is just about the last thing shamans have left.. BEFORE any type of heroism/bloodlust is introduced in another form, drums.. or another class having a similar spell.. shamans need more utility.. or something to make them unique again.. the totem idea was cool.. and somewhat well designed a bit clunky but 3.2 (i think it was) made this a bit easier with totem bars, though still a clunky system as you have to redrop totems every 30-40 yards, this is rather annoying, especially when the buffs just aren't worth it.. and can be brought by other classes, and in most cases a slightly better version is brought by other classes.

If their dps is too low to contribute then their dps needs to be increased. Thats an entirely separate issue and its only more likely to get fixed if heroism becomes non unique. As far as not bringing any unique buff or utlity... welcome to the club, neither does anyone else (except druids with rebirth but your welcome to start a thread if you have an idea for fixing that). There is no reason you need to bring a Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Warlock, Warrior, paladin, etc. All of their buffs can be brought by someone else. On hard modes people sometimes avoid a second Spriest and second shaman because their dps is too low but thats a seperate issue from heroism. You dont fix imba dps by having an imba buff. Thats horrible design.

No other class requires a unique raid dps buff to get invited. Shamans shouldn't either. If a shaman needs heroism to get an invite then hes using heroism as a crutch and the crutch needs to get taken away so they can grow stronger.

[Deleted]

Drums of GTFO

[Advent]

Yeah... it was a good idea back in Sunwell. Not now. Either recruit a GOOD shaman or stop whining. That's all people ever do about this game now days. It is a core shaman ability that has been given to them for a reason. No one's going to change it, and it's not getting spread around. Let it be.

[Mangusei]

NO NO NO NO NO. If you make drums of heroism there is no sense in taking shaman to raids. Feeling like only reason you take shaman to either 10 or 25 man raid is hero...

[Milamber]

My 10man group wants 50 try 10man hc. We have 49, 48, both with shamans. We had a 30 try one without a shaman. We wont go in there without a shaman. No shaman on? -> Raid postponed.

[Keoren]

*cut off to keep the post short*

Was meant to not post here anymore, but as nobody said this yet - enhancement shamans still bring the best SoE, all shamans bring wrath of air which is 5% spell haste that isn't provided by anything else and their other totems are also very powerful (tremor, cleansing etc.). They also bring situationally very helpful purge and low cd interruption. Purge is the best offensive single-target dispel.

Shaman dps is an issue as of currently, but even without monopoly on heroism the utility is bigger than many other classes have.

[Corathor]

If their dps is too low to contribute then their dps needs to be increased. Thats an entirely separate issue and its only more likely to get fixed if heroism becomes non unique. As far as not bringing any unique buff or utlity... welcome to the club, neither does anyone else (except druids with rebirth but your welcome to start a thread if you have an idea for fixing that). There is no reason you need to bring a Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Warlock, Warrior, paladin, etc. All of their buffs can be brought by someone else. On hard modes people sometimes avoid a second Spriest and second shaman because their dps is too low but thats a seperate issue from heroism. You dont fix imba dps by having an imba buff. Thats horrible design.

No other class requires a unique raid dps buff to get invited. Shamans shouldn't either. If a shaman needs heroism to get an invite then hes using heroism as a crutch and the crutch needs to get taken away so they can grow stronger.

I completely agree, however the fact of the matter is right now shamans for the most part ONLY get invited for BL/Heroism in most topend content. I understand that a shaman should not be THE top dps as he is a hybrid class.. and I agree.. I understand that you should be able to 'bring the player not the class'... but with shamans as they currently are.. if bloodlust or heroism is given away then you will see a drastic decrease in shamans in end content raids.. I don't think that this should be the case... and I don't think that some other class/profession recieving heroism in order for it to be seen that this is whats going to happen should be the case.. the issues of the shaman need to be fixed first and foremost, if the issues with shamans were fixed, you'd never have a problem finding a shaman that was good enough.. and could bring your bloodlust... thats why everyone wants an alternative class/profession to provide it right? well if you fix the problems the class has, then there will be more of said class.. and you won't have a problem finding what you want.. bloodlust and heroism!

Purge.. meh, Priests can dispel, Hunters can Tranq
Low CD Interrupt.. meet Warrior/Rogue
Tremor? Not many end game raids really need tremor..
Cleansing.. yes.. this is probably the best totem any shaman can bring.. i agree.. but its nothing that can't be provided by other classes, other classes have cleanse disease/poison as well
SoE.. the small difference between SoE and Horn of Winter is barely worth bringing just a shaman over a DK.. trust me most people rationalize this the same way when picking people for end game content.. they'd rather lose that 20 or so agility and have someone who can do an extra 1-2k dps over the shaman.
Spell haste, always a nice buff... however not a huge crutch.. barely touches dps..

[Milamber]

Necroing this because of the new bluepost:

Bloodlust / Heroism Drums?
We’re considering it. There are two big considerations at play here. One is we’re unsure the buff is as mandatory as some players think it is. It certainly feels like a big boost when it happens, but part of that is because so many groups use the Bloodlust / Heroism moment as the time to blow all their cooldowns and go all out. While it is unarguably a buff (though for some specs more than others), it’s role as “blow everything!” is significant too. Secondly, while we ultimately wouldn’t mind having a weaker consumable available (like Kings and Fortitude) for groups, we’re not crazy about the idea of every character running around leveling, using Bloodlust for every kill quest. At that point, it just feels like a mandatory consumable and anything designed to make it feel less mandatory (like an expensive cost) feels bad.

The we’re not crazy about the idea of every character running around leveling, using Bloodlust for every kill quest Part sounds a little wierd...

[Tommorello]

if it happens im rerolling, and that will be that

[torny]

Drums of heroism/bloodlust.. gief

Increase shammy dps by 25% to make up for it.. then we'll do just about as much dps as arcane mages :O maybe not but we can still hope right?