The "Raids are more casual friendly, everyone gets to experience them" argument

[NonPlayer]

I have one word to say to this.

ORLY.

The average raider in WotLK will say how much better the raid system is designed in WoTLK and that everyone now has access to all raid content.

ORLY.

The assumption that these people make this claim on is that less than 1% of all WoW players ever raided level 60 Naxxramus. While this statement may be true, lets look at some interesting WotLK Raid facts.

Lets assume WoTLK has a 12 million player subscription. Something that these people (i will now refer to the people who make the "everyone gets to experience WoTLK raids" as "these people") claim WotLK has. (note - Blizzard for some reason has never published official WotLK figures).

Here goes (as quoted from WoWProgress.com) -

Number of guilds to have Completed Normal Argent Colesium = 19,183 (approximately 479,575 players)
Number of guilds to have killed Normal Beasts = 23,594 (approximately 589,850)

589,850 / 12,000,000 = 5% of the playerbase to have killed beasts.

So to all you people who claim Naxxramus 60 "was too hard, WotLK style of raiding is better and more people can see raid content", i have but one thing to say to you -


ORLY



/discuss


edit - the purpose of this thread is to show that raiding in WoTLK has an extremely similar % of playerbase raiding as what Vanilla or TBC did, and thus proving that making raids easier hasn't increased the number of people that are actually raiding.

(something that alot of WoTLK fans seem to be claiming)

[Herecius]

I admit I'm having trouble deciphering exactly what you're arguing for or against. That said, normal mode beasts is indeed easy enough that anybody that wants to put a little bit (a very little bit) of time into the game can complete it without fuss. That says nothing of the heroic mode of course, but we're talking normal mode here. I also doubt that the 12 million figure is accurate, and it's especially not accurate for the number of people with level 80 characters. It's hard to estimate the number of accounts with people that are actually leveling extremely slowly, or never even taking characters to max level, because trust me, there are quite a few out there.

So uh. What's your argument? Raids are hard? They're too easy? Casuals suck? Elitists suck? Everybody that isn't you sucks? People who raided Naxx at 60 suck? Epics are too easy to come by?

[veemon_ro]

His argument is that raids have been made shit now so more people can experience them, when acording to wow progress still a minority of people have seen them.

[zazgan]

your math is wrong because wow progress tracks guilds, not pugs that finish toc

in one week more successfull pug clears of all normal toc bosses(10 and 25) are made than guild clears

you can see toc 10 if you lvl yourself to 80 and get some hc/badges/crafted gear

[mahrary]

since this change was made, personally, I got to raid 25men a lot more than before. and I know a lo tof other people are finally getting to experience some progress. I think that these statistics are wrong and do no t represent the true scene. In fact, I know they are.

[Facedesk]

What just happened?
Also, that math's off. Theres 12,000,000 players. Or active accounts at least. Now out of those 12,000,000, 589,850 have killed beasts. 12,000,000/589,850=20,3. One player out of 20 have gotten beasts down at some point. Wich ends up giving us 5%, not 0.049%.

Dear god of math, don't let me be wrong on this one.

Oh, and as stated above this number does not include pugs.

[Deleted]

You are a tool.

ORLY

Yes, really. Try actually constructing a sound argument with a decent logical thought process. Just bashing "ORLY" in an attempt to be hip/ cool / fantastic into some statements does not merit a discussion. If you were truly looking for this then properly using statistics would have been a wonderful idea.

Here are some misconceptions. You are supposing that a guild has only 25 members. This is a minimum. If you were to take the average guild size as 200 (again, another stupidly inaccurate number, like your own) then the number of people to have killed Northrend Beasts mushrooms to 4718800. Almost 5 million.

See how manipulating statistics can get you what you want?

A reasonable suggestion is a guild may have 70 unique players (taking into account larger guilds - which can reach 200+ and the smaller guilds). This is then 1.6 million people to kill Northrend Beasts > 10% of the raiding population. Now, it is a fair assumption that less than 1% of people killed the first boss of AQ in the patch it was released.

See how if I piss around with numbers I can make any useless, biased opinion I want?

Also, include PuGs.

[Deleted]

589,850 / 12,000,000 = 0.049% of the playerbase to have killed beasts.

eh?

I am not a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination, but is that not closer to 5%?

[NonPlayer]

in one week more successfull pug clears of all normal toc bosses(10 and 25) are made than guild clears

Proof please.

What just happened?
Also, that math's off. Theres 12,000,000 players. Or active accounts at least. Now out of those 12,000,000, 589,850 have killed beasts. 12,000,000/589,850=20,3. One player out of 20 have gotten beasts down at some point. Wich ends up giving us 5%, not 0.049%.

Dear god of math, don't let me be wrong on this one.

Oh, and as stated above this number does not include pugs.

Correct, i edited original post. Not that there is a huge amount of difference between 5% and 0.049%, but still i seek the truith so i will change it correctly.

[Oktrag]

Mate, if you're going to use maths in your arguments, learn some of the basics first. That number you reached should be 4.9% which is already 5 times as much as the Naxx values stated, and I think claiming 25 people per guild that has completed it on wowprogress is an extremely low estimate.

[Deleted]

589,850 / 12,000,000 = 0.049% of the playerbase to have killed beasts.

For percentages, multiply by 100 at the end.

Failure to use basic maths.

[Deleted]

Correct, i edited original post. Not that there is a huge amount of difference between 5% and 0.049%, but still i seek the truith so i will change it correctly.

Dear God, I hope you never go into a science as a career. The difference of 5% and 0.05% is massive.

[Azyoulike]

Unfortunately your maths has too many problems to be able to draw conclusions

a) You're assuming that people only clear ToC in guilds, when particularly in 10 man it is successfully pugged on many realms. Many small guilds will routinely pug in a few extras.

b) You have no way of knowing how many people are in the guilds that have completed it. In principle you could datamine Armoury for the character info, but there's no way of telling the number of discrete players. Some guilds will be just 10 guys, some will be hundreds of casuals only a few of whom raid each weak.

c) The 12 million was including china, and I don't think that wowprogress or guildprogress include the chinese servers. It's something like 6 or 8 million otherwise.

I understand you're trying to produce a percentage to compare to the oft-quoted naxx-60 number, but it's a fools errand. Only Blizz have accurate subscriber numbers, only they have an accurate count of how many characters have completed any given raid. Only they can match them back to players.

Correct, i edited original post. Not that there is a huge amount of difference between 5% and 0.049%, but still i seek the truith so i will change it correctly.

Erm - 2 orders of magnitude would generally be considered a huge difference.

[Deng]

Flaws in OP logic:

- wotlk has 12 million players -> wotlk was never released in china -> they can't kill northrend beasts (not to mention wow is banned there now) -> that leaves us at 6 millions approx at most
- every guild and his mother is registered on wowprogress -> yeah, sure, like many people care (especially when they killed only beasts or pugged them)
- a guild has on average 25 members -> yeah, and what about 10man raiding guilds or guilds with 200+ people that raid

not to mention disbands/pugs/whatever.

Only Blizzard knows the raiding player base.

[veemon_ro]

Funny to see how people start complaining about wow progress beeing inacurate when used in an argument AGAINST wotlk, yet the same people dont mind using wow progress in favor of wotlk raiding.

Also wasn't there just 5% of the guild who cleared swp? And yet every one was q.q'ing about people not seeing progress?

Now it seems that the number is close to 5% for people killing beasts, and yet every one is happy.

I guess when it comes down to it, no one cares who kills what bosses, people just care about the loot they get and how easy they need to work for it

[alvian]

All I can tell you is that your logic is not correct and your assumptions are also not correct

First of there is no evidence of 12 000 000 active WoW subscriptions, and if this is a correct number there are still a lot that are used by goldsellers and alike. Also subscriptions from China, where WoW is now banned are counted ... but lets say there are 12 000 000 active subscriptions and on all of them at least one level 80 character that DO try to enter raids.

Now first:

589,850 / 12,000,000 = 0.049

And this equals:

4.9% ...

Second:

According to wow progress there are currently 23 594 guilds that have killed normal beasts (actually there is one more since last time you checked ) and you say this is approximately 589 850 players. Well no. I can assure you that there are much more than 1 account per guild that has completed it. It is save to assume that approximately 35-40 accounts from EVERY guild has experienced .

Third:

There are TONS and I mean it TONS of characters that:

1. Are in a guild but only a few have completed TotC or killed a few bosses and thus the guild is not listed.
2. Are totally guildless and still have completed TotC or killed a few bosses.

They are so much that if we are talking normal beasts only - the numbers should increase 2 to 3 times.

Moreover according to wow progress 30796 guilds have killed beasts 10 men normal - this is still the current end game raid instance.

If we consider all of the above we can actually safely presume that 10% of the active wow accounts (if not more) have raided in TotC.

Finally even if 4.9% have entered TotC and killed beasts 25, this is still FIVE TIMES MORE than the percent that supposedly went in Naxxaramas 60.

And if you still think that "raiding in WoTLK has an extremely similar % of playerbase raiding as what Vanilla or TBC did", I have one thing to say:


ORLY?

[Deng]

Now it seems that the number is close to 5% for people killing beasts, and yet every one is happy.

Where did you get 5% in the first place?

[veemon_ro]

All I can tell you is that your logic is not correct and your assumptions are also not correct

First of there is no evidence of 12 000 000 active WoW subscriptions, and if this is a correct number there are still a lot that are used by goldsellers and alike. Also subscriptions from China, where WoW is now banned are counted ... but lets say there are 12 000 000 active subscriptions and on all of them at least one level 80 character that DO try to enter raids.

Now first:

589,850 / 12,000,000 = 0.049

And this equals:

4.9% ...

Second:

According to wow progress there are currently 23 594 guilds that have killed normal beasts (actually there is one more since last time you checked ) and you say this is approximately 589 850 players. Well no. I can assure you that there are much more than 1 account per guild that has completed it. It is save to assume that approximately 35-40 accounts from EVERY guild has experienced .

Third:

There are TONS and I mean it TONS of characters that:

1. Are in a guild but only a few have completed TotC or killed a few bosses and thus the guild is not listed.
2. Are totally guildless and still have completed TotC or killed a few bosses.

They are so much that if we are talking normal beasts only - the numbers should increase 2 to 3 times.

Moreover according to wow progress 30796 guilds have killed beasts 10 men normal - this is still the current end game raid instance.

If we consider all of the above we can actually safely presume that 10% of the active wow accounts (if not more) have raided in TotC.

Finally even if 4.9% have entered TotC and killed beasts 25, this is still FIVE TIMES MORE than the percent that supposedly went in Naxxaramas 60.

And if you still think that "raiding in WoTLK has an extremely similar % of playerbase raiding as what Vanilla or TBC did", I have one thing to say:


ORLY?

So basicly they made raids utter crap so 4-5% more of players can experience them...kay.
And you also say that alot of people have done toc in pugs and are guildless. Well what does that tell you? That guilds can be absolete now since any one can just pug and clear the instance.

[NonPlayer]

Major flaw:

You "assume".

Doesn't make it fact.

The only thing i assumed is 12 million playerbase.
A figure i got from you Det.

Rest are facts from WoW Progress with estimates filling in the gaps (mostly assuming 25 players per guild).

Number crunch as you wish, the figure are what they are.

[Deleted]

Also wasn't there just 5% of the guild who cleared swp? And yet every one was q.q'ing about people not seeing progress?

But it is not 5%. It is 5% without the player base of China and making the poor assumption that every guild has 25 players.

Depending on how you skew the numbers it can be 5% or nearer to 80% (not including China) or 50% (including China). The reasoning behind the original post is terrible.