does having 10 and 25 man versions of the same raid double the pace of burnout?

[sulfuric]

I'd prefer the game be made hard and stay that way.

[Advent]

I'd prefer the game be made hard and stay that way.

This.

[LeperHerring]

If you are bored of the content, don't run it as much.

It takes one raid night for us to clear ToC in four modes. Rest of the week I log in to do a daily or two. How could I possibly play less? Not raid at all?

[fords]

I'd prefer the game be made hard and stay that way.

Agreed. Let 10 man be easy mode but keep the 25 man raids hard.

[Gron]

This

This!

Nothing like telling the people paying to play a game to stop playing the game if its become boring instead of asking more of the developers making gross 600 mil (equivalent to a blockbuster movie, BEFORE paying for its production costs) profit a year.

But more money remains for other things, or pockets, if the profits are not invested back in new and interesting content for WOW.

[Daedelus]

My guild entered Ulduar in April and we have only just stopped going there - we spent over 6 months in there doing normal and hard modes. The only hard mode left is Yogg+0

My point is that Ulduar was designed well enough to hold your interest for that long. The hard modes felt 'natural'; in a lot of cases allowed you to ease in to them (Iron Council, Freya, Yogg) and some you needed a certain level of performance to even activate the hard mode (XT, Thorim). You could also choose the order you did bosses so if you were struggling on Mimiron then you change focus to Freya for the night.

How long has ToC been out? 6 weeks? I'm already sick of the place and I think a lot of others are too. It's terrible. As soon as Anub on 25 heroic is dead I can't see us ever going back to be honest, because IC should be out by then.

And while we're on the subject of Anub, whilst I love a hard encounter, making an encounter where not having several paladins, 2 x DKs and warrior(s) overstacked on block gear severely reduces your chances is complete bollocks on Blizzard's part. So much for 'the player not the class'...

[Advent]

My guild entered Ulduar in April and we have only just stopped going there - we spent over 6 months in there doing normal and hard modes. The only hard mode left is Yogg+0

My point is that Ulduar was designed well enough to hold your interest for that long. The hard modes felt 'natural'; in a lot of cases allowed you to ease in to them (Iron Council, Freya, Yogg) and some you needed a certain level of performance to even activate the hard mode (XT, Thorim). You could also choose the order you did bosses so if you were struggling on Mimiron then you change focus to Freya for the night.

How long has ToC been out? 6 weeks? I'm already sick of the place and I think a lot of others are too. It's terrible. As soon as Anub on 25 heroic is dead I can't see us ever going back to be honest, because IC should be out by then.

And while we're on the subject of Anub, whilst I love a hard encounter, making an encounter where not having several paladins, 2 x DKs and warrior(s) overstacked on block gear severely reduces your chances is complete bollocks on Blizzard's part. So much for 'the player not the class'...

I really wish my guild was like yours. In fact, the month or so I spent doing ToC when we could be trying for server first Algalon 25 has made me incredibly irritated, which contributed to me cancelling my account. I liked Ulduar, and I'm starting to see that people want to go after gear more than progression, especially when a ton of people show up on "loot Tuesday" and are mysteriously absent the rest of the week.

Sure, the loot in Ulduar is outdated, but who can really take shots at you when you're the first guild on the server to actually bring down all of the Ulduar Hard modes, including Algalon? Because of that lack of ambition, I left.

[Daedelus]

I really wish my guild was like yours. In fact, the month or so I spent doing ToC when we could be trying for server first Algalon 25 has made me incredibly irritated, which contributed to me cancelling my account. I liked Ulduar, and I'm starting to see that people want to go after gear more than progression, especially when a ton of people show up on "loot Tuesday" and are mysteriously absent the rest of the week.

Sure, the loot in Ulduar is outdated, but who can really take shots at you when you're the first guild on the server to actually bring down all of the Ulduar Hard modes, including Algalon? Because of that lack of ambition, I left.

Algalon was always number one priority for us, although we missed realm first, we got it second

We actually fell a little behind on ToC progression because we were still using up our hour on Algalon every week. There are still only two guilds to have done Algalon on our realm, as everyone else focussed on ToC as soon as it came out, and honestly I'd rather have the Astral Walker title than any loot.

There's just none of that 'progression' feeling in ToC. You just hope you get to Anub with 40+ tries.

[Ruan]

I find the 10/25 versions of the same instance an extremely poor design decision.

1. Burnout. Yeah doing the same instance multiple times in a week is not fun. Tier 9 especially since Heroic mode is on a seperate lockout so we end up doing the same thing 4 times per week.

2. 25 is not a multiple of 10. A good many guilds have around exactly 25 core raiders, there may be a few standbys but in general there are only enough players to make up two 10-man groups. The remainder? Miss out on 10-man or PuG it.

3. Itemization. While the 10-man loot is behind by 13 ilvls some pieces are itemized so well as to be BiS for certain classes, yet it comes to a point where no one wants to go to the instance because everything else is useless.

Mjolnir Runestone
Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves

[thundercles]

I think the main contributor to raider burnout is the relative easiness of the WotLK instances versus the older ones.

Guilds progress much much faster through this content that they used to.

Oh sure, your guild might not be clearing ToGC 25 every week, but there's a lot more guilds that are clearing the "end game content" and doing so much sooner than a typical progression raid would have done in BC.

The most hardcore guilds are doing the most hardcore stuff the same as always, but IMO they are getting it done much sooner, say after only a few months of progression rather than 6 or so.

My own guild is currently progressing through ToGC 25 WAY faster than we progressed through Black Temple, for example.

Personally, I like it. I play a lot but would still consider myself "mostly casual."

Yes it can get boring now but I think that ICC will be more challenging, at least I hope it will be.

[sulfuric]

Yes it can get boring now but I think that ICC will be more challenging, at least I hope it will be.

I went through the entire expansion thinking this, however when ToC came out I simply couldn't wade through any more mud to get to the other side. Hopefully ICC will redeem this expansion for you guys, I can only hope.

[mutantboy]

1. Burnout. Yeah doing the same instance multiple times in a week is not fun. Tier 9 especially since Heroic mode is on a seperate lockout so we end up doing the same thing 4 times per week.

I will NEVER understand this attitude. I was talking to a guy the other day who just gave up WoW cos it's too easy. He burnt out because even though he was in 90% BiS 25man gear from Ulduar he still insisted that he had to do 10 mans. Easy and hard. EVERY week. He claimed not to have missed a lockout of ToC since it was in place. Before he gave up he did ulduar 10man HM for 12 straight weeks or something. On top of this he did 4 or 5 25man ulduar HM's in a row.

So i asked him if he ever thought about taking a couple of weeks and NOT doing the 10 mans. Or maybe only doing HM's. I mean he claims that all 10man content is faceroll. But then he told me he hasn't got all the 10man acheiv's he wants because a couple of guildies screw up every week.

Right - so because his guildies can't cut it in faceroll content (his words) and the content is too easy (his words again) he is giving up. Rather than not doing multiple attempts at the same thing.

I invited him to come play poker on Friday and get pissed. maybe i can show him that playing 3 nights a week and not worrying about achiev's will make the game better.

[sulfuric]

I will NEVER understand this attitude. I was talking to a guy the other day who just gave up WoW cos it's too easy. He burnt out because even though he was in 90% BiS 25man gear from Ulduar he still insisted that he had to do 10 mans. Easy and hard. EVERY week. He claimed not to have missed a lockout of ToC since it was in place. Before he gave up he did ulduar 10man HM for 12 straight weeks or something. On top of this he did 4 or 5 25man ulduar HM's in a row.

So i asked him if he ever thought about taking a couple of weeks and NOT doing the 10 mans. Or maybe only doing HM's. I mean he claims that all 10man content is faceroll. But then he told me he hasn't got all the 10man acheiv's he wants because a couple of guildies screw up every week.

Right - so because his guildies can't cut it in faceroll content (his words) and the content is too easy (his words again) he is giving up. Rather than not doing multiple attempts at the same thing.

I invited him to come play poker on Friday and get pissed. maybe i can show him that playing 3 nights a week and not worrying about achiev's will make the game better.

it wont make the game any better, it might make his life a bit better though. And yeah 10 man hardmodes are still necessary for guildmates. If everyone quit doing hardmodes when their own gear is complete, they will find themselves guildless and with a lot of enemies.

[mutantboy]

it wont make the game any better, it might make his life a bit better though. And yeah 10 man hardmodes are still necessary for guildmates. If everyone quit doing hardmodes when their own gear is complete, they will find themselves guildless and with a lot of enemies.

make the game better as in less is more?
And while I don't suggest not doing HM's I would say that doing 10man (norm) 10man (hard) + ony/Voa/anything else going (wed) then 25man (norm) + 25man (hard) + 25 Ony (or whatever) (Thur) is excessive. It's boring. it might be OK a couple weeks running - but EVERY week with 100% attendance...

[Advent]

make the game better as in less is more?
And while I don't suggest not doing HM's I would say that doing 10man (norm) 10man (hard) + ony/Voa/anything else going (wed) then 25man (norm) + 25man (hard) + 25 Ony (or whatever) (Thur) is excessive. It's boring. it might be OK a couple weeks running - but EVERY week with 100% attendance...

In order to gear up for 25 hard mode, this excessive content replay is almost absolutely necessary to achieve the upgrades you need in order to pull your weight. Otherwise you're bringing the raid down because you didn't take the time to do the raids to find your upgrades.

[Deleted]

Ulduar had a lot of nice things in it even though our guild couln't do much hards in 25man and it took us quite long to down Yoggy. We did 10man hards though but getting 10ppl with some dedication is way easier to get than 25ppl and I enjoyed the 10man hards quite a bit.

ToC on the other hand... We finished normal25 on the same day Anub was up like the majority of guilds but even to this day we cannot down beasts on heroic :P 10man heroic we have cleared but it doesn't give any satisfaction and we only do it to get some pieces of gear still missing. ToC has been boring from week one and even if we would down some bosses in heroic, it wouldn't make much difference it would still be the retarded place it has been from the beginning and it's killing my intrest in the game every week. So I decided to take some weeks off raiding so that ICC might feel like a nice place when it goes live

I sure hope ICC will be like Ulduar since I really enjoyed the place. If it fails like ToC, then I guess I won't see Cataclysm...

[blahism]

In order to gear up for 25 hard mode, this excessive content replay is almost absolutely necessary to achieve the upgrades you need in order to pull your weight. Otherwise you're bringing the raid down because you didn't take the time to do the raids to find your upgrades.

This is very true.. and now that dual spec is standard for raiding you're not just focusing on one spec.. for example in togc 25 man i'm resto until anub and then oomkin. I couldn't go into the fight either way without great gear specific to each spec and that means toc 10/25 togc 10/25, ony 10/25, voa 10/25 and even some ulduar between all that.