Balance Druid Changes - Can someone help me understand?

[Wooly]

I can see where the developers are coming from.

It's a DPS nerf that only highly-skilled Druids are going to feel, and those players usually understand their place in the raid and will just roll with the punches. Boomkin are a great raid utility that can also hold it's own on the DPS charts, but, you are not a pure DPS class and shouldn't expect your numbers to reflect one. If you want your damage meters to look like that of a Mage, Warlock, or Hunter, then I suggest rolling one.

While I understand Blizzard's logic behind removing flaw of which Wise Eclipse 'takes advantage', at the same time I see no recognition on their part of the very random nature of Eclipse, in particular regard to Wrath.

Regarding the above quote, and Blizzard's stated philosophy, I think it is an outdated idea. I've spent just as much time devoted to my Druid as any other 'pure dps' player (if not more). As someone else mentioned in another post here, there are a variety of utility talents that 'pure dps' specs bring.

TLDR - Wise Eclipse was going to be adressed. The 'pure dps' > hybrid spec which focuses as dps is beyond it's time.

[superstargoddess]

TLDR - Wise Eclipse was going to be adressed. The 'pure dps' > hybrid spec which focuses as dps is beyond it's time.

Psssh, let's see them nerf feral druids who are doing way more dps than they should be for "hybrid dps" compared to boomkins and spriests.

[Chamass]

Psssh, let's see them nerf feral druids who are doing way more dps than they should be for "hybrid dps" compared to boomkins and spriests.

This nerf is not about numbers, its about the neccisity for addons (or whatever its spelled like). Plain and simple. The nerf for the t8 set is to prevent us from keeping it into t10 content, just like the elemental t9 set gets nerfed for the same reason. Nothing to do with dps numbers, at all

[shadev]

Yes:
Moonkins are lower then some pure classes like arcane mages, rogues, hunters and even dks
No:
In my guild, with awesome rogues, dks and mages, the difference is no higher then about 400-500 dps, in toc25.
(thats 8.5 where they get 9)

That is without this wiseeclipse addon. Everyone knew it was to clever use of mechanics. Everyone knew it would get whooped. And they did, so dont qq about it.
They are even giving us a better t10 bonus, to make up for the crappy t8 we were stuck with (which i gladdly replaced with 4*t9.25)

This is totally deserved, its not even a nerf. its a exploit fix to not make druids abuse the server-client lag...

Ah yes im sorry the tier set bonus are supposed to balance classes sure, 1) the set bonus wont make up for the loss, 2) the 2 set is still retarded with having to spc into OOC for the bonus. You might think addons are retarded, personally i dont use them, but it still doesnt change the fact they are nerfing moonkins when we arnt even overpowered dps to start with. With all the buffs to shadow priests we are probably gonna be one of the lowest dps classes in raid.

[Th3meow]

1. True, the fix is justified. I do not use the addon myself.

2. They need to do something about boomkin dps, asap. If you really must stick to eclipse then make it so it isnt completely RNG based (something similar to arcane blast maybe?)

[Chamass]

Ah yes im sorry the tier set bonus are supposed to balance classes sure, 1) the set bonus wont make up for the loss, 2) the 2 set is still retarded with having to spc into OOC for the bonus. You might think addons are retarded, personally i dont use them, but it still doesnt change the fact they are nerfing moonkins when we arnt even overpowered dps to start with. With all the buffs to shadow priests we are probably gonna be one of the lowest dps classes in raid.

Anyone NOT using wiseeclipse wont even notice the difference, cause their eclipse is allways on a 15 sec duration.
Also nobody in their right mind would wear 2x 226 items over 2x 251 or higher, considering the 4 set t9 is allready better with 25 man versions, so its NOT a nerf. its a fix

edit: also, the t10 set is FINALLY optimised for the stats we need. no more stupid spirit+crit OR haste. no. ALL pieces have no spirit, and 2 out of 3 secondaries (hit, haste, crit). Can damn well live with that. who needs t8 xD

[Deleted]

This nerf is not about numbers, its about the neccisity for addons (or whatever its spelled like). Plain and simple. The nerf for the t8 set is to prevent us from keeping it into t10 content, just like the elemental t9 set gets nerfed for the same reason. Nothing to do with dps numbers, at all

It's not. It's about stopping something then didn't intend.

All WiseEclipse does is automate something that is possible using the standard interface. It makes it more accessible, but the difference between using this addon and cancelling the buff manually is tiny compared to the gain from say using clique+grid for healing.

[Deleted]

I feel for boomkins. Their dmg has seemed pretty low even with mostly i245 gear. Or very unpredictable since it seemed to depend on crits for almost any decent dps-output. This nerf seemed unnecessary.

You have been playing with bad moonkins. A well played moonkin has no problem being on par with mages, warlocks, rogues etc.

From the way I am understanding it, it's going to be almost like it was before they changed eclipse. Where you had a cooldown before you could get another one and it was at 30 secs or something. Now it's just 15 secs. Yes? That's why I am so pissed off.

Yes, now its 15 seconds starting when your eclipse fires. But its nowhere near how it was before they changed eclipse. The ONLY difference we see from this is that we can't get the benefit from Wise Eclipse, meaning we will have to cast a few more starfires outside of eclipse to proc solar eclipse. Thats it.

15 seconds between eclipses is a bit much. they could have made it 5 seconds to break wiseclipse.

You are getting it wrong. There isn't 15 seconds between eclipses, just 15 seconds from one procs till the next can proc.

With the major eclipse change, the key part was "One eclipse cant proc if the other is up on the target", which is why WiseEclipse was used to remove lunar on the last cast, so we still got the crit, but solar eclipse wasn't up, allowing solar eclipse to proc. This usually meant that we only had lunar eclipse up for 13,5-14 seconds, because the last few seconds was always clipped off.

Now, there is a 15 second cooldown when eclipse procs, before you can proc it again. But in that time, you will be doing whatever eclispe you just procced. Example:

Wrath, wrath, wrath
Lunar eclipse procs, starts 15 seconds cooldown
Starfire, Starfire, Starfire, Starfire, Starfire, Starfire (here is where WiseEclipse would cancel the effect)
15 second cooldown is up, just as lunar eclipse runs out by itself
Starfire, starfire, proc.

Yes:
Moonkins are lower then some pure classes like arcane mages, rogues, hunters and even dks

No.

Anyone NOT using wiseeclipse wont even notice the difference, cause their eclipse is allways on a 15 sec duration.
Also nobody in their right mind would wear 2x 226 items over 2x 251 or higher, considering the 4 set t9 is allready better with 25 man versions, so its NOT a nerf. its a fix

You are wrong here. While 4pt9 258 is better than 2pt8/9, it is not quite the case for tier 10, because the bonuses aren't as strong and stand alone on tier 10 as it was on 8 and 9. The major focus on EJ is that 4x T9 258 is best to use until you are able to put on 4x 264 (thats the second level of tier 10) at the same time. Because of that, its not unreasonable to think that 2pt8/9 is better than 4x t10 251 (pre t10 buff).

[Deleted]

You are wrong here. While 4pt9 258 is better than 2pt8/9, it is not quite the case for tier 10, because the bonuses aren't as strong and stand alone on tier 10 as it was on 8 and 9. The major focus on EJ is that 4x T9 258 is best to use until you are able to put on 4x 264 (thats the second level of tier 10) at the same time. Because of that, its not unreasonable to think that 2pt8/9 is better than 4x t10 251 (pre t10 buff).

True, but that being said the WiseEclipse nerf already impacted 2T8 negatively and might have been enough to shift the gearing decision towards 4T9 245. With the 2T8 nerf it's a no-brainer of course, but it's important to remember that 2T8 became especially strong due to the 3.2 change to Eclipse and then to the WiseEclipse mecanic.

[Saranthas]

You have been playing with bad moonkins. A well played moonkin has no problem being on par with mages, warlocks, rogues etc.
<snip>

You are wrong here. While 4pt9 258 is better than 2pt8/9, it is not quite the case for tier 10, because the bonuses aren't as strong and stand alone on tier 10 as it was on 8 and 9. The major focus on EJ is that 4x T9 258 is best to use until you are able to put on 4x 264 (thats the second level of tier 10) at the same time. Because of that, its not unreasonable to think that 2pt8/9 is better than 4x t10 251 (pre t10 buff).

I have my doubts about playing with bad moonkins, but there's no way to prove either or. However, moonkins seem much more gear dependent to stay on par with mages and warlocks. I may understand moonkin mechanics incorrectly but doesn't most of their dps depend on the amount of crits/crit rating they get/have to proc the eclipses? I've watched our boomkins with over 50% crit go through 15 casts without a single crit before. That, to me, seems out of the players control.

Also, if you're saying 4pt9 or 2pt8 is going to be better than t10 until you get 4pcs I think I see why Blizzard has been nerfing prior tier sets recently. They don't want players clinging to old tier sets just because of set bonuses, which makes perfect sense.

[Deleted]

True, but that being said the WiseEclipse nerf already impacted 2T8 negatively and might have been enough to shift the gearing decision towards 4T9 245. With the 2T8 nerf it's a no-brainer of course, but it's important to remember that 2T8 became especially strong due to the 3.2 change to Eclipse and then to the WiseEclipse mecanic.

Hmm, thats true. On the other hand, Blizzard must have had an idea of how the eclipse change would work together with 2pt8 - im sure they run the numbers before they release stuff like this. I dont think, though, that if the change was just to remove Wise Eclipse, that we would still go for 4pt9. WiseEclipse is a small buff, but 2pt8 (15%) is a massive buff.

I have my doubts about playing with bad moonkins, but there's no way to prove either or. However, moonkins seem much more gear dependent to stay on par with mages and warlocks. I may understand moonkin mechanics incorrectly but doesn't most of their dps depend on the amount of crits/crit rating they get/have to proc the eclipses? I've watched our boomkins with over 50% crit go through 15 casts without a single crit before. That, to me, seems out of the players control.

Also, if you're saying 4pt9 or 2pt8 is going to be better than t10 until you get 4pcs I think I see why Blizzard has been nerfing prior tier sets recently. They don't want players clinging to old tier sets just because of set bonuses, which makes perfect sense.

Yeah, that is excactly why we are seeing a nerf to tier 8.

You are right in your observation that moonkin damage is very dependant on gear, and we have a factor of luck in aswell. I remember once on Mimiron where we had a resto go moonkin because we didn't need his heals. He is substancially worse geared than i am, and i saw him pop eclipse THREE times in the beginning of the fight before i got one - i had just been spamming wrath constantly, thinking "next one will proc it". Most of the time, however, this wont happen, and we usually proc lunar eclipse quite quickly after solar eclipse.

There are some things to keep in mind with moonkins:

- The longer we go without being in eclipse, the more damage we lose. Our damage is only balanced if we can spend most of our time in eclipse.
- We benefit only half from effects like bloodlust and such, because it only affects our starfire during eclipse. So while you (i dont know what class you play) enjoy the full 40 seconds of bloodlust, we only see a DPS increase while we are in lunar eclipse. When we go into solar eclipse, we are already doing 1 GCD wraths, and bloodlust doesn't help us one bit. And currently, 2pt8 wraths are still better than bloodlusted, non-eclipsed starfires. This might change now - it might be more beneficial to go back to simply spamming starfire during bloodlust, but that will be *equal* damage at best.
- Because of RNG, we gain a lot from whatever extra crit we can get. Effects like Focus Magic is a static DPS increase for a mage, but it is a massive boost to moonkins, allowing them to spend less time to proc eclipses.

[shadet]

If they wanted to nerf the use of WiseEclipse then simply make the Eclipse buff unable to be cancelled... Problem solved and much less of a nerf than chucking us back a patch with a slightly lowered CD. With this change AND the 2pcT8 nerf i'm not looking forward to going into ICC and watching my dps plummet :'(

[Deleted]

If they wanted to nerf the use of WiseEclipse then simply make the Eclipse buff unable to be cancelled... Problem solved and much less of a nerf than chucking us back a patch with a slightly lowered CD. With this change AND the 2pcT8 nerf i'm not looking forward to going into ICC and watching my dps plummet :'(

How would that be different from what they just did? Whether it cant be cancelled, or you cant gain a new eclipse in less than 15 seconds after one, it comes out to excactly the same. Your suggestion breaks WiseEclipse just as much as their change.

What you do now, is do your best to get 4pt9. Once the patch hits you switch to that. You will see a dent in your DPS, but it shouldn't be a massive one.

[shadet]

Errm... Pretty sure you can gain an eclipse straight after another one. As soon as lunar eclipse drops off you can proc solar eclipse and vicaversa. If you're not proccing eclipse for 15 seconds after then you're either very unlucky or have very bad crit (or aren't spamming your button fast enough)

[Degrador]

Almost EVERY rotation has addons that help their class increase DPS. NOthing debatable about this. Someone with swing timers, hot timers, debuff timers, dot timers and whatnot will do better than someone running "Vanilla"

As before, addons that help you do things you can do without them are fine. Ones that do stuff that require an addon are not. Like I said, get a good moonkin using the vanilla UI sitting on a training dummy and they will be able to get just as good DPS as someone using any addon other than WiseEclipse.

Yeah, in case you fail at reading, i mentioned that my gear for moonkin isn't the best, however using the t8 bonus and the wise eclipse addon i was able to at least be helpfull.

Why is it that what I said was exactly right and you admit this, but then say 'in case you fail at reading'?

Thats all nonsense.. If they really felt that way they would be more like LOTRO or other MMO's that dont' have an extensive addon/macro functionality and they wouldn't have made the encounters so strong/difficult to require tracking of such.

Umm, speaking of nonsense... If there was something necessary for the interface, why wouldn't they include it by default (assuming they had the time and it was critical enough)?

This a futile argument.. Really.. if peope don't need addons, don't need rotations, don't need to min/max and don't read EJ or MMO champ or whatever it is they do to improve their stats then just what exactly is wow anyway? once you "don't need" or devs say "you shouldn't need" Then they're just dumbing things down for all the wrong reasons.

ROFL. I'm sorry, but this is just brilliant. Please tell me, how do you plan to explain that using addons to make things easier for you isn't 'dumbing things down'?

You shouldn't require an addon to maximize your HPS, either. Let's see how you feel about us removing Grid from the game.

I did mention that Blizzard admit their healing UI isn't good enough and they want to improve it. How does this contradict the notion that you shouldn't need addons to play the game well?

I'm glad you have such a critical opinion of this considering both of your specs are restoration. Go troll a resto thread.

How about sticking to the merits of my argument rather than my armory? Perhaps look up exactly what it is to be a troll at the same time?

[Sunfyre]

shouldn't[/b] need addons to play the game well?


How about sticking to the merits of my argument rather than my armory? Perhaps look up exactly what it is to be a troll at the same time?

So you're okay with Grid going away then? I mean, your argument was "you shouldn't need addons to make you a better DPSer". By that logic, you shouldn't need addons to heal better. Just because Blizzard has a bad healing U/I isn't a very good reasoning. Their stock DPS U/I isn't any better.

Your arguments aren't valid. There's no merit to discuss.

[Sunfyre]

You have been playing with bad moonkins. A well played moonkin has no problem being on par with mages, warlocks, rogues etc

Sorry Qieth, you need to start posting parses. Every credible parse I've seen from any guild clearing heroic Anub shows balance druids not being on par, and if they are, it's been shown their other DPS is not "on par" of where they should be.

[Eilt]

His logs are posted, you can check the last 10 pages of the Moonkin Guide, you will see he is topping the DPS meters and that his pures are not carrying this weight, I then posted my screenshots (logs are private) where I was doing more DPS than he was and getting beat by pures. He then complained about fight length differentiation and other things that would skew the meters in favor of the pures instead of admitting his pures are just not carrying their weight.

As far as the changes go I am okay with it, if weapon swapping was going to get killed WiseEclipse falls into that same category. The issue I have is chaining eclipses has been around for a bit and we are just competitive in terms of DPS. Where is the compensation for this nerf to Balance druid DPS?

[Aluana]

lol unholy dk spam on faction champs xD

His logs are posted, you can check the last 10 pages of the Moonkin Guide, you will see he is topping the DPS meters and that his pures are not carrying this weight, I then posted my screenshots (logs are private) where I was doing more DPS than he was and getting beat by pures. He then complained about fight length differentiation and other things that would skew the meters in favor of the pures instead of admitting his pures are just not carrying their weight.

As far as the changes go I am okay with it, if weapon swapping was going to get killed WiseEclipse falls into that same category. The issue I have is chaining eclipses has been around for a bit and we are just competitive in terms of DPS. Where is the compensation for this nerf to Balance druid DPS?

did you just ask for compensation? seriously? blizzard barely know what that word means...

[FourofaKind]

Long story short, yall shoulda agreed with me that we sucked on meters, then bliz wouldn't have done this =P (i keed)