Disc mp5 vs spirit comparison...

[Kwaku]

Hey, I'm kinda to new priest, I was wondering which statistics gives greater benefits.
And another question is: How mp5 scales with raid buff e.g BoK ?

/Discuss

( I'm sorry If the topic already exist but coudn't find it )

[Pheonixis]

Mp5 doesn't scale with BoK. Spirit does however. The more spirit you have the less effective each point will become. Intelligence is always better though.

[Kelesti]

Mp5 doesn't scale with raidbuffs. It scales with nothing. Period. End of sentence.

Spirit scales with Blessing of Kings, obviously. But, it also scales with Intellect, so the more intellect you have, the better your Spirit will become (and your Intellect is buffed from Blessing of Kings, and Gift of the Wild/Arcane Brilliance as well).

However, for spirit to pass mp5 in constant, 100% casting (you never stop to get past the 5 second rule), you would need 1900+ Intellect. At this point, any spirit is probably moot in the first place.

If your subspec is Holy, sure you may want to use spirit hybrid gems. If it's PvP, or shadow (or you have a secondary set of gear) use pure Intellect gems, unless the socket bonus is worth it (or you're activating your meta gem), in which case you'd use the green cut giving you Intellect/Mp5, or the Royal (purple) cut for SP/Mp5.

[Zusterke]

It seems Kelesti beat me to it in a reply so I'll keep it short
For Disc, 2 Int > 1 MP5 > 2 Spirit as easy rule of thumb.

Exceptions are possible, such as Kelesti mentioned but generally int is the best regen stat.

One note though:

The more spirit you have the less effective each point will become

Hmm, my maths contradict this. Could you elaborate on this or show me where I erred in my calculations? I'd be gratefull!

According to wowwiki

Mana Regen = 5 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * 0.005575 ) * 60% (rounded up)

Add FSR, BoK and talent bonuses and you get as abstract factor and you get:

Mana Regen = 5 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * 0.005575 ) * FSR * 131.1% * 60% (rounded up)

The value of spirit can be obtained using the derivative:

d(regen)/d(Spirit) = 5 * sqrt(Int) * 0.005575 * FSR * 131.1% * 60%

This function does not relate to Spirit. Therefor the value of spirit does not evolve with itself or has any impact on its own value.

For Intellect, however, we do have a degeneration:

d(regen)/d(Int) = 5 * Spirit * 0.005575 * FSR * 131.1% * 60% * (1/2) * (1/sqrt(Int))

The bigger intellect becomes, the smaller the contribution of intellect to spirit-regen becomes because its value is relative to itself with factor 1/sqrt(int).

Did I miss something?

[Danner]

Spirit scales linearly.

Assuming 1293 intellect, 1 spirit gives 0.3 MP5 while casting.
More intellect means more MP5 per point of spirit. The value of spirit is increased by Holy Concentration, specific talents in the disc and holy tree, and BoK.

Intellect scales linearly.

By looking at the spirit formula, the gains from intellect will decrease logarithmically as you gain more intellect, so in this case, it does not scale linearly. But intellect also gives 15 more mana. And most of the gains from intellect comes from this source. My rule of thumb is that 1 int = 0.5 MP5 as holy. Like with Spirit, BoK will increase the value of intellect, as will a certain talent in the discipline tree.

MP5 scales linearly.

It's a very static and boring stat unaffected by external buffs. It's also quite a lot better than spirit if you are undergeared; the breaking point seems to be around 1300 int in my opinion. I do not believe MP5 is better than intellect, ever. But proving this is hard math.

[Zusterke]

I fear we are getting confused around the point of reference. When I mean "scale" I mean that the value of the stat itself scales. ie: spirit scales with int, as in each point of spirit becomes more valuable with each point of int.

Looking at your statements, Danner, it seems you refer to your regen scaling with given stat. ie: your regen will increase linearly with mp5.

Is that correct?
I fear that it is imperative to have a concensus if there is any point to be made about the value of regen stats

[bigjenk]

Both are crap once you are in about toc 10 gear. You should aim to be around 27-28k mana raidbuffed and with cds being used appropriately you will never oom. Int is you best regen source without talents. If you dont need int gem spell power as you will most likely be hitting diminishing returns with crit and over soft haste cap by this point where both will still help you but no longer be that good. Spell power continues to scale well as pennance, pw:s, and pom all have very good coeficients for spell power as disc.

[Danner]

Looking at your statements, Danner, it seems you refer to your regen scaling with given stat. ie: your regen will increase linearly with mp5.

Is that correct?

Er, yes. That was my understanding of the topic at least. Adding 1 more of stat X will give a constant gain, no matter what your old value of X was. Substitute X with [spirit, int, MP5] as you see fit. That's what I mean with linear gains from a stat.

The only stat which does not scale linearly is intellect. It scales MORE than linearly, as it scales both with spirit (decreasing benefits) and with a larger mana pool (linear gain). On a side note: O() notation only counts the largest factor, meaning this stat does scale linearly too.

But I do see what I might have misunderstood here though. There are interdependencies between stats and buffs, and the stats themselves, which do not scale linearly. For example: Spirit scales with intellect (decreasing benefits) though the spirit regen formula, and also with crit (decreasing benefits) through holy concentration uptime.

[Kwaku]

First of all thanks, its abit more clear, but I ment abit more about items.
Let me explain:
Example --> Lets say I'm using an item with spirit and I can get almost item with same stats ( sta,int, crit) but instead of spirit there is mp5, should I consider this item as disc? I know it's depend on value of spirit and mp5 on these items. But lets take the item with mp5 gives abit more regen unbuffed, but what about fully raid buffed?

I mean what is ratio mp5 <--> spirit fully raid buffed, so I could knew from which item I will get more benefit.

EDIT: Simple Example
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40108
vs.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47200
My request is which item will give more benefit fully raid buffed? ( yea, I know these are crap items :P )

[Zusterke]

Example --> Lets say I'm using an item with spirit and I can get almost item with same stats ( sta,int, crit) but instead of spirit there is mp5, should I consider this item as disc? I know it's depend on value of spirit and mp5 on these items. But lets take the item with mp5 gives abit more regen unbuffed, but what about fully raid buffed?

As Disc priest, normally, MP5 will prove better unless you have about 2000 int.

[Zusterke]

Danner, I see what you mean but I don't agree entirely. I admit it's just details though (I hope you'll have the patience to bear with me )
but I'd like to work to a consensus.

The O() notation gets in trouble with the regen formula since it has a product of 2 variables. It correctly notes the linear aspect of MP5 and it can reveal the linear aspect of intellect (through manabar regen) as strongest factor. But it fails to reveal the real strength of the product of spirit*sqrt(int).

This where the derivatives offer additional info. Assuming

A = 60% * level_factor * fsr * hc * 5

Then the regen becomes

Regen = 0.005 + A * spi * sqrt(int)
d(regen)/d(spi) = A * sqrt(int)
d(regen)/d(int) = A * spi * 1/2 * 1/(sqrt(int))

What's interesting is that we can check the optimal ratio for these two (considering _only_ spirit regen, as this balance between spirit & intellect will eventually be impacted by manabar regen as well)

d(regen)/d(spi) = d(regen)/d(int)
A * sqrt(int) = A * spi * 1/2 * 1/(sqrt(int))
int = 1/2 * Spi

So the optimal balance between int & spirit, considering only spirit regen, is to have int equal half your spirit or simply have double the spirit than your int. If we use a calculator or spreadsheet, we would obtain exactly this, when we abandon all manabar regen:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...=0&c=0&s=0&i=0
What's more: this is irrelevant of buffs, spirit tap, fsr, regen while casting, level, holy concentration etc. This is the balance you'll want to aim for before hitting level 60 (before all those manabar regen sources come into play)

This function is the sole reason it's worth checking out the value of regen stats at different gear levels. Otherwise we would have X > Y as rule for all levels of gear. Of course, as we include manabar regen such as replenishment, fiend, HoH, totem and so on, intellect's regen power is increased by a linear factor. But regardless of how big this linear factor is, the spirit regen retains the biggest order. In time, Spirit will always prove the dominant stat. In 3.2 and 3.3 this is bullsh** simply because our stats are too low for the spirit function to outgrow the strength of manabar regen. In other words, it is balanced for our gear level

[Danner]

I see what you are getting at, Zusterke, you want an actual way of comparing the regen stats. I'm with you and willing to help with the calculations to the best of my ability!

Nice math, btw - I knew of the 2:1 ratio, but hadn't tried calculating it myself. I knew derivation was useful for something!

And yes, I agree, that if you want to figure out just exactly how much better int is than spirit, then we should indeed not settle for which stat scales more, but figure out exactly by how much. That is a noble approach I have been trying - and failing - to systemize easily for months. Let's see if we can find something!

--

Every single gear item we get will have intellect on it. I don't see how it is possible to get below 1500 intellect raidbuffed at T9 levels. But as you also point out, no way in hell are you going to get 3000 spirit. Maintaining the optimal 2:1 ratio for the spirit regen formula is pretty impossible. But, this ratio is only working if you only consider the spirit regen formula. While a major part of the regen of a priest, I don't really agree that it covers more than around half of my regen income.

So the devil is really in how the hell we weight int versus spirit. Preferrably in a way which didn't involve cooldown usage, holyconc uptime, critrate and procs per minute. Those parameters are frankly just making everyone confused

If the regen system was easy, we could get a formula where we could stoically say that "1 int is worth 0.6 MP5, 1 spirit is worth 0.52 MP5. Int is superior". This is a very static system, easy to work with and kinda boring. We don't have the luxury of a simple system, the benefits from stats increase and decrease based on interdependencies. We have interdependencies between stats: spirit regen depend on int directly, and crit (int) indirectly. Int-regen in turn depend on cooldown usage, and is even harder to measure. Very few of these interdependencies are linear. Heck, some of the stats, like crit, aren't linear in itself.

--

But, we can definitvely use that the regen formula holds spirit at 2x as good as int. But we should cover the gains from a higher manapool as well, and as I said, this is hard to measure as it really depend heavily on cooldown usage. In the worst case scenario with a lazy priest, you will only get the 0.15 MP5 from replenishment per point of intellect. But if you use Hymn of Hope + Shadowfiend and stack shammies in your group, the number could easily be closer to 0.8 MP5 per point of intellect.

Assuming the gains from a manapool on average was equal to the gains form the spirit formula, then intellect would be 1.5x as good as spirit. (1 spirit equals (0.5 int from spirit regen formula + 1 int from manapool regen). I don't think that's a terribly wrong number to be honest. But it's also very subjective. And it still doesn't account for holy concentration, which strongly improved spirit regen, but based on crit (and thus intellect). And more importantly, it is still based on an optimal relation between int and spirit not attainable in-game. In fact, it kinda feels wrong ^^

[harky]

Moot point, but MP/5 is typically better. The only MP/5 piece I have is a ring and I'd gladly trade it for crit. I have a bunch of spirit gear purely because that's what is on gear. Neither matters if you're in T8 or better gear as regen is a non-issue as Disc.

On the Int vs Spirit debate, it's been done to death. Yes, Spirit gives more paperdoll mp/5 than Int. In a world with no Replenishment, Hymn, Fiend, etc and where all fights started with 0 mana then yes, Spirit would be good. In the real world those things do exist and we start at full (or close enough) mana. No, Spirit does not produce anywhere near as much effective regen as Int. I guess the debate on it started up back when Replenishment was nerfed, but all that really did was take Int from three times as good as Spirit to 'only' being twice as good.

Either way it's a moot point as Disc. Anymore I use my Shadowfiend just before BL for the extra damage rather than for mana. I can't remember the last time I used a mana potion either. I use Hymn during transitions to help those who do have mana problems. All it does for me is make me giggle at 35k mana for a few moments.

[Kelesti]

Both are crap once you are in about toc 10 gear. You should aim to be around 27-28k mana raidbuffed and with cds being used appropriately you will never oom. Int is you best regen source without talents. If you dont need int gem spell power as you will most likely be hitting diminishing returns with crit and over soft haste cap by this point where both will still help you but no longer be that good. Spell power continues to scale well as pennance, pw:s, and pom all have very good coeficients for spell power as disc.

One of the reasons Intellect is your strongest regen point is due to both Rapture and Mental Strength, both of which are talents.

Saying they're both crap is a little iffy, because sure you can go out and gem nothing but pure SP like a Shadow Priest (or at least pre 3.3 shadow), and even change your meta and your cloak enchant. But some fights do take their toll, especially when they're drawn out, like Anub'arak in ToGCr-25 (I expect a bunch of Heartbreaker length boss kills to go into effect on Icecrown's launch).

And let me point out some slightly faulty logic as to why you gem SP (correctly) for those abilities, instead of crit/haste, etc:
It has nothing to do with their spell coefficients. A shield can't crit (even though its glyph can, that's different), PoM crits frequently, but isn't affected directly by haste, and you build your soft cap of haste around Penance to begin with (how many GCD's/Flash Heals can you fit into one cooldown?). Spell Power affects all of the above. Crit has "deminishing returns" and haste has sweet spot issues, which are somewhat resolved when you bring in Greater Heal for both more oomph and higher HPS on demand.

But don't you dare tell me mana is completely resolved and go 100% thoroughput as of getting some ToCr-10 gear. 1k gold says you still use at least one regen trinket through ToGCr.

And Danner and Zusterke: Nice work, though I doubt any of it is actually fitting for this particular topic. The two of you setting up a new sticky would be fan-frak'n-tastic though. Especially since certain people *coughSpirituscough* have yet to actually get their website up and running.

[harky]

But don't you dare tell me mana is completely resolved and go 100% thoroughput as of getting some ToCr-10 gear. 1k gold says you still use at least one regen trinket through ToGCr.

I don't and haven't in quite a while. I keep Spark and Show of Faith as Holy, but I prefer IDS and Eye of the Broodmother for Disc. Hopefully T10 will offer something more appealing. I am still using Darkglow, though. So I guess I'm not 100% throughput.

[Kelesti]

I don't and haven't in quite a while. I keep Spark and Show of Faith as Holy, but I prefer IDS and Eye of the Broodmother for Disc. Hopefully T10 will offer something more appealing. I am still using Darkglow, though. So I guess I'm not 100% throughput.

Sorta, yeah. What meta you running? Sill the overpowered IED?

[harky]

I keep two helms around and switch between ESD in Zebra's and IED in the haste version of the Halo. ESD for Disc and IED for Holy.

[prilosec]

Well, I guess I'll try to simply things for the OP since he is new to the class. You posted a good example with the two rings. Go with the one that has more Spell Power. That should be your first consideration. After that it comes down to gemming. The three gems i will use are either Haste/mp5, Int, or SP. There are alwayts exceptions though. I gues, your best bet would be to post a specific "this-or-that" situation, and go from there.

[Kwaku]

Thanks!

[Zusterke]

Sorry for getting back so late on this topic but I did not rush it, seeing both OP still could use an answer or two and since I needed time to think your post through, Danner. I was hoping I could come up with some magic solution but it seems David Copperfield's manual was only giving illusions instead of real magic.

So the devil is really in how the hell we weight int versus spirit. Preferrably in a way which didn't involve cooldown usage, holyconc uptime, critrate and procs per minute. Those parameters are frankly just making everyone confused

The truth is we cannot... sadly... or it requires a piece of math to deal with variables beyond my knowledge. The balance between intellect and spirit is fixed in the regen formula but including cooldowns and other manabar based regen breaks this balance. The value of intellect then scales with 2 factors, and spirit only with 1. While the regen formula may give the highest order, within the realm of attainable stats in the current content, we cannot ignore the immense regen intellect can potentially yield.

we should cover the gains from a higher manapool as well, and as I said, this is hard to measure as it really depend heavily on cooldown usage. In the worst case scenario with a lazy priest, you will only get the 0.15 MP5 from replenishment per point of intellect. But if you use Hymn of Hope + Shadowfiend and stack shammies in your group, the number could easily be closer to 0.8 MP5 per point of intellect.

This is indeed the problem. The potential regen obtained from intellect is immense. But the worst case scenario is extremely low.

Assuming the gains from a manapool on average was equal to the gains form the spirit formula, then intellect would be 1.5x as good as spirit. (1 spirit equals (0.5 int from spirit regen formula + 1 int from manapool regen). I don't think that's a terribly wrong number to be honest.

I don't entirely agree with the model & numbers since thes eentirely depends on the ratio you currently have between spirit and intellect But I would agree with some of the logic and the fact that intellect is, atm, worth more than spirit because of its potential regen through cooldowns.

I modeled regen by assuming some expected return from the intellect based cooldowns. I build my calculator to include this:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...p?t=intspirit2

However.. I did try some other models. Rather than trying to fixate some return from intellect I tried to find a "reliable" gear strategy. Instead of searching for the 'exact' optimal balance.. instead we look for a balance between spirit and intellect where we cannot "lose too much regen through inefficient stat allocation". In other words: a strategy that minimizes the loss in a broad set of situations. We know for sure that spirit regen will work untill chuck norris comes around to kill you. We can assume a worst case scenario for spirit to be 100% FSR and 20% HC (I have never been able to get less than 30%). We can assume an optimal return would be 90% FSR (if you have less FSR time, mana shouldn't be a problem anyways) and 60% HC. Alternatively we could take higher HC uptimes, but that would increase our FSR time. This defines our spectrum for spirit regen.

For intellect I assumed the following boundaries:
- Replenishment, Fiend + HoH work to the max of their potential. I know we could have even more... but I found that hardly reliable on progression fights where it matters the most.
- At least Replenishment OR Fiend worked as worst case scenario.
- If you get even less regen from intellect, insult the RL's mother with all that is unholy. If you happen to be the RL.. blame a critter.

Within these spectrums, you can then check the manareturn of different stat balances and how effective they remain under different circumstances. Here I hit a strange result. One would think spirit to come out on top, since it is more 'reliable', and therefor prove more solid. This was not the case. While spirit has a strong growth factor in spirit regen, this also penalizes spirit in the balance. The 'degeneration' of your spirit regen, through an imbalance in stats, is a lot quicker for spirit than it is with intellect. Intellect stays strong through a linear factor keeping it up. This is why, even in disastrous cases, a balance with more intellect than spirit is likely to yield better results on average than a balance with more spirit. On the other hand, and this should not be underestimated, is that spirit provides a very solid backbone in your regen.

The way I see it.. add intellect to get regen 'power' from your cooldowns. Add spirit to gain more freedom in 'when you activate the cooldowns'.

Still my research is incomplete. The next step, I suppose, would be to put both spectrums presented above in a space. Then, given different ratio's, we should be able to plot a 'bent plane' and it's weight point should yield a ratio which offers the most reliable balance between stats. These ideas are quite new though and I haven't thought them through. ATM it's looking a lot like a 4 dimensional function and it's always a good idea to rethink the problem before diving into that