Thread: Body and Soul.

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  1. #21

    Re: Body and Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxxx
    funny i never said anything about pvp being balanced around 1 vs 1. I was just pointing out that i thought priest lack mobility maybe go l2r before posting k?
    Can't you see that complaining about the mobility of the class kinda IS talking about 1v1 balance?

    It's one of Discipline's weaknesses, along with Poisons. Every class should have a few weaknesses. This makes it so we team up with people who can supplement our weaknesses with their own strengths. Our strength happens to directly help with the fact that we can't get away well, we can heal through beatings very well.

    Your arena mates or BG teammates should be helping you out by peeling people off you since you're not as mobile and by cleansing poisons off you since you can't.

    Therefore, B&S would be OP in the Discipline tree, since it directly affects both of those weaknesses and makes us that much more self reliant.

    Another thing, almost every PVE encounter can benefit (to varying degrees) from the speed boost, whether for yourself or a DPS/Tank.

    Also, you can dispel spirit wolf and pally bubble, so it's not always a full escape for them VS a Discipline Priest if you're quick. With that said, I don't think an AoE Fear is much worse than those 2 things when it comes to making a gap. Druids are a different story, lol.

    EDIT- Amen, Worshaka, to your post above me.

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  2. #22

    Re: Body and Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Pity Blizzard (who design the game if you didn't realise) have categorically stated that there are no pure PvE or PvP trees, each tree is supposed to be viable and while they understand they don't have the balance correct for that at the moment, that is the design. The only reason trees get labeled in this fashion is due to players like yourself who think they know better than the designers.

    Body & Soul is a pvp talent in the holy tree that has some pve applications, like a lot of pvp talents.
    Blizz has made no effective effort to make a great deal of specs PVP viable. Almost all specs work to some degree in high end PVE, which is Blizzards largest motivator. The same can not be said of PVP, where at high levels of play more than half the specs are not useful. Including at least one spec that was originally designed purely for PVP. In any case, I never said Holy was not intended to be PVP viable, only that Holy is not PVP viable. Holy is a pure PVE spec. Could that change in a few months, years, etc? Sure. Don't care. It is pure PVE here and now. That's why players 'like me' label it as such. Thinking about what might have been, or could be would just complicate the present unnecessarily.

    Body and Soul is a utility talent. It would have uses in PVP, but that would not change what it actually is; Utility. All specs have utility talents to some degree. Their position and placement makes them PVP talents, not their exact nature.

  3. #23

    Re: Body and Soul.

    Well another reason why Body and Soul isn't more obtainable is because you can use it on other players. Giving a mini sprint to your teammates every 25-30 sec or so is pretty damn good.

  4. #24

    Re: Body and Soul.

    I just respecialized for 2 points in the Body and Soul talent and I have to say it certainly has its uses in a number of the Icecrown Citadel encounters. I think Blizzard just didn't want the Holy priest to be jealous of the Discipline bubbles, so they get their very own nifty bubble. It's surprising that more than 90% of the holy priest I've seen don't consider BaS, I'd assume mostly because they see that whole self-poison cleansing part and instantly draw to the conclusion that it's PVP only.

  5. #25
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    Re: Body and Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by doomsjay
    I just respecialized for 2 points in the Body and Soul talent and I have to say it certainly has its uses in a number of the Icecrown Citadel encounters. I think Blizzard just didn't want the Holy priest to be jealous of the Discipline bubbles, so they get their very own nifty bubble. It's surprising that more than 90% of the holy priest I've seen don't consider BaS, I'd assume mostly because they see that whole self-poison cleansing part and instantly draw to the conclusion that it's PVP only.
    The thing is that there are lots of good healing and manareg talents deep in the holy tree, and you only got so much points to spend, so a utility-only talent usually doesn't get taken.
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  6. #26

    Re: Body and Soul.

    For me BaS was mostly thought for improving survivability od holy priests in PVP only. Of course you can easily find some use in some PVE raid situations this is clear as well. But from my discipline point of view, this is not logical in PVE. PW:S is one off the less usefull spell a holy can cast : very high mana cost (it's 1k mana if I do remember right?), very low protection (half of a disc' one) just for a speed run.

    If I was playing with a holy priest having this talent in raid i would be annoyed a lot : obviously he would cast PW:S on a target that needs to escape from a damage area or something like that. This is precisely the target I would be trying to protect as well and I would not like to face a WS issue with holy! This exactly the reason why 2 disc priests are quite impossible to put together in raid : WS overlap makes you lose a huge amount of GCDs :/

    The talent design of BaS would make it a natural disc tree one I found it completely out of the holy frame, but this is obvious that letting disc priests have it would make them OP in PVP which is a shame. Having the talent in PVE would be just fine on the contrary ;D (but even then, knowing that in a 25man I can cast up to 1500-1600 PW:S, that would almost be a little too much regarding raid move's speed a little OP too I guess)

  7. #27

    Re: Body and Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    The thing is that there are lots of good healing and manareg talents deep in the holy tree, and you only got so much points to spend, so a utility-only talent usually doesn't get taken.
    Speak for yourself Aether. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Ândrömèdâ
    For me BaS was mostly thought for improving survivability od holy priests in PVP only. Of course you can easily find some use in some PVE raid situations this is clear as well. But from my discipline point of view, this is not logical in PVE. PW:S is one off the less usefull spell a holy can cast : very high mana cost (it's 1k mana if I do remember right?), very low protection (half of a disc' one) just for a speed run.
    It has uses not in some, but most PvE raid situations, assuming you know where to look. A castable Sprint can be quite logical, even as a DPS increase on your DPS Death Knights who run out of melee to avoid standing in the "fire". (Your Rogues sprint, and your warrior's charge or intercept, don't they?).

    The mana cost is something like 880, I think (I've still been running with Spark of Hope so I haven't checked actual costs in awhile), and the output for me is roughly 5.5k. My Discipline Priest does about 7.4. So that's a little more than "half" of a Discipline Priest's shield. There are situations where 5.5k +60% run speed will help avoid all damage, where 7.2k won't. Sure, it's not required in a raid, but it helps more than you'd think.


    If I was playing with a holy priest having this talent in raid i would be annoyed a lot : obviously he would cast PW:S on a target that needs to escape from a damage area or something like that. This is precisely the target I would be trying to protect as well and I would not like to face a WS issue with holy! This exactly the reason why 2 disc priests are quite impossible to put together in raid : WS overlap makes you lose a huge amount of GCDs :/
    That's why, when you're not in PuGs, you try to sort out what's actually beneficial both before and after attempts. When is best for B&S? When's better for the raw healing? If you can't answer these, then I'm sorry but you need to pull your head out of your ass. The overlap on a lot of fights is actually pretty limited.

    The talent design of BaS would make it a natural disc tree one I found it completely out of the holy frame, but this is obvious that letting disc priests have it would make them OP in PVP which is a shame. Having the talent in PVE would be just fine on the contrary ;D (but even then, knowing that in a 25man I can cast up to 1500-1600 PW:S, that would almost be a little too much regarding raid move's speed a little OP too I guess)
    They gave it to Holy, not only for PvP, but for giving a reason to actually put the spell on your bars. They did the same with Renew, too (through Empowered Renew). A lot of Discipline Priests seem to forget they aren't a Paladin and have more than three spells (Penance, Flash, Mending).
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  8. #28

    Re: Body and Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    The mana cost is something like 880, I think (I've still been running with Spark of Hope so I haven't checked actual costs in awhile), and the output for me is roughly 5.5k. My Discipline Priest does about 7.4. So that's a little more than "half" of a Discipline Priest's shield. There are situations where 5.5k +60% run speed will help avoid all damage, where 7.2k won't. Sure, it's not required in a raid, but it helps more than you'd think.
    I think the mana cost should be around 999 mana (666 for disc), and I think you probably underestimate your disc spec abs value. From data I collected (which are estimated I know), mine are between 7.5 to 10k depending on pds procs. But you are right on the point that Holy ones should be more than the half of a disc one.

    That's why, when you're not in PuGs, you try to sort out what's actually beneficial both before and after attempts. When is best for B&S? When's better for the raw healing? If you can't answer these, then I'm sorry but you need to pull your head out of your ass. The overlap on a lot of fights is actually pretty limited.
    Since I am not english speaker I am not sure if "pull your head out of your ass" is insulting or not. So I will skip this one. And speking about raw healing when disc mitigation is concerned sounds very funny but be it. And overlaps are more frequent that you might think. From the Holy point of view probably not so much, from the disc one it is. This again is why having 2 disc in a raid requires quite good organization between the the two precisely to avoid this.

    They gave it to Holy, not only for PvP, but for giving a reason to actually put the spell on your bars. They did the same with Renew, too (through Empowered Renew). A lot of Discipline Priests seem to forget they aren't a Paladin and have more than three spells (Penance, Flash, Mending).
    I think you just missed what I was trying to say so I summarized :
    - PW:S for holy is just like renew for disc : situationnal. There is no need and more important little effiiency to spamm those spells. They have to be used only at the right moment, not spammed.
    - If holys talented with B&S start spamming PW:S, then they will just cut off what their disc partner can do better than themselves. If no disc is there do what you want but you will clearly see your mana dropping during the encounter imo.

    You could use this talent to allow enhancement chams or DK to run back faster to the boss but from my point of view, having two points spent for this - meaning 1k mana spending for a sprint which will increase DPS so poorly - is waste.

    Don't get me wrong I find this talent very good by itself, and quite funny by the way. But very situationnal.

  9. #29

    Re: Body and Soul.

    B&S is not a PVP talent. It's a raid utility talent. Regardless of whatever secret world some people live in thinking that Holy isn't a pure PVE tree... it is. Blizzard doesn't care and has made no effort to hide that. They've even made all the 'pvp' talents past the third tier into PVE talents so that there's no temptation to go Holy for PVP. B&S just happens to stand out as nice for PVP and a lot of PVE Priests don't understand how good it is.

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