Thread: Ardent Defender

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  1. #21
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo
    One thing to add: Chaos Bolt ignores Ardent Defender, because Ardent Defender absorbs the damage, that would otherwise kill you.
    In my eyes, this is quite unfair.

    Why do i say this? No, it's not just because i'm a Paladin, but also because of one other, rather large detail. Destruction Locks burst. Currently Destruction Locks have some of the highest burst in game. It's on par with the pre-nerf ret burst if i'm honest.

    They've yet to be brought in line ("Yo dawg, globalling someone is skillz"), and are one of the few specs that can take down almost anything without fear (despite being squishy if you can get in range). Let's compare to an Elemental Shaman.

    In order to achieve burst, Elemental shamans have to first spend a global on Flame Shock, which can be cleansed (and is often a priority), and then spend a few seconds on a Lava Burst.

    A destro lock has no need to do this. They're free to put on a few DoTs if they wish, yes, but they can still get 12k+ crits from Chaos Bolt on other players if geared properly. Had this been a Ret Pala, it'd have been nerfed in days. Yet here we are, a year later, with almost 0 change to the spell.

    /rant off.

    Others answered the question at hand though
    It's better for a Prot Paladin to go into PvP with PvE gear, since the avoidance you get nullifies melee a lot, and the extra HP you get (unless you've got access to the highest tier of arena gear that is) will serve you much better than a rather small amount of damage reduction (it's only once you get into the 1K+ resillience range that it's even noticable). A trinket is still an essential though
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  2. #22

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctity
    Not quite, your example is right but this one is also correct:
    EX: you have 34% health, you would be hit for 20% of your health reducing you to 14%, 14<35 so this damage is reduced by 20%.

    Ardent Defender, great talent? Or greatest talent?
    No, like I said, unless they changed it back without me seeing it, they changed it so it no longer does ALL damage below 35% but just the hit that reduces you below 35% (Due to leapfrogging). There was a Blue post about it when it was changed.

    If you can show me where it was changed back to all damage while below 35% that would be great, but until then I stand by it being the hit that reduces you below 35%, not all damage below 35%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  3. #23

    Re: Ardent Defender

    hmm... @ copain.
    from 3.2 patch notes:
    ==========================
    Protection
    Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Any damage that takes the paladin below 35% health is reduced. This reduction applies only to the portion that pushes the paladin below 35% health (example: a paladin at 50% health takes a 40% hit; the first 15% hits as normal while the next 25% is reduced). In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead heal the paladin for up to 10/20/30% of maximum health depending on the paladin's defense rating (example: a paladin with defense equal to only 5 times his or her level will receive no healing from the talent, while a paladin who is immune to critical strikes from boss creatures through defense will receive the maximum amount).
    ==========================

    as i read it.. it is all damage we receive below 35% as well. anyways
    should be simple to test it in a heroic and simply watch combat log for a thing hitting you multiple times under 35% HP


  4. #24

    Re: Ardent Defender

    hmm... @ copain.
    from 3.2 patch notes:
    ==========================
    Protection
    Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Any damage that takes the paladin below 35% health is reduced. This reduction applies only to the portion that pushes the paladin below 35% health (example: a paladin at 50% health takes a 40% hit; the first 15% hits as normal while the next 25% is reduced). In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead heal the paladin for up to 10/20/30% of maximum health depending on the paladin\\\'s defense rating (example: a paladin with defense equal to only 5 times his or her level will receive no healing from the talent, while a paladin who is immune to critical strikes from boss creatures through defense will receive the maximum amount).
    ==========================

    as i read it.. it is all damage we receive below 35% as well. anyways
    should be simple to test it in a heroic and simply watch combat log for a thing hitting you multiple times under 35% HP
    I just bolded the part that proves you wrong >_>...


    Read after the bold to see why it says what makes you think it is all damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Text
    The part where you said if it was a *ret paladin it would have been nerfed* makes it sound like a complaint <_<.


    I really do not care much for PVP, but one thing I would like to point out is that if you are honestly PVPing in Tank gear in tank spec, chaos bolt should not be your downfall. When I PVP, I PVP in my tank gear and I never die from a chaos bolt. Even if I was about to I would just silence them, stun them, LoH, or Bubble, which is what a pally should do.. It is so easy to see the cast on it >_>..


    And before I hear it (There always seems to be that one guy), a good Paladin uses his CDs, not die and go on about how the guy only killed him because he used X spell or how the other killed the guy who killed him because he used Y spell
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  5. #25

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    I just bolded the part that proves you wrong >_>...


    Read after the bold to see why it says what makes you think it is all damage.

    The part where you said if it was a *ret paladin it would have been nerfed* makes it sound like a complaint <_<.


    I really do not care much for PVP, but one thing I would like to point out is that if you are honestly PVPing in Tank gear in tank spec, chaos bolt should not be your downfall. When I PVP, I PVP in my tank gear and I never die from a chaos bolt. Even if I was about to I would just silence them, stun them, LoH, or Bubble, which is what a pally should do.. It is so easy to see the cast on it >_>..


    And before I hear it (There always seems to be that one guy), a good Paladin uses his CDs, not die and go on about how the guy only killed him because he used X spell or how the other killed the guy who killed him because he used Y spell
    fortunately your wrong =)

    it applies to ALL dmg you receive when your under 35% hp also hits which takes you from 20-10% hp and so on. if you don't believe me. just test it by a tree or anything else soft hitting mob.

    i just tested it on the elite trees below Dalaran and every single hit i toke below 35% popped up with an absorption note in the combat log =)

    EDIT: and this is why we can count Ardent defender as a stealth passive HP increase becouse it works exactly like those talents.





  6. #26

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    I just bolded the part that proves you wrong >_>...

    Read after the bold to see why it says what makes you think it is all damage.
    The wording changed to that because before it worked like this:
    EX: you are at 80% HP, uberboss would hit you for 75% of your HP reducing you to 5%. 5<35. So AD reduced the whole hit (by 30% back then) not just the part that occured below 35% hp.

    This was changed and rightly so however my example is still valid.

    PROOF:
    I logged in and took of dura gear:
    http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...g?t=1259692920

    Then i pulled some nastys and died, this is my combat log:
    http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...g?t=1259692901

    all those little absorbs down the side are AD reducing every hit while i'm below 35% You can even see where I absorbed 9 damage as only a fraction of the hit was under the 35% mark.

    EDIT: Like the guy above me said but mine has pictures =)
    Sanctity, level 90 Blood elf protection Paladin of <Fallout> on Tarren Mill EU

  7. #27

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    Why did you bother posting? He said

    And you just said the exact same thing. You act like you were correcting him just to say what he did.
    I probably quoted the wrong person or something, no big deal.

  8. #28

    Re: Ardent Defender

    It was changed because of leapfrogging the HP amount, not because it would mitigate a big hit like that. Paladins were being killed at around 36% HP (dont ask me how) and were not getting the proc, and were complaining about it.

    If they changed it BACK (and apparently remixed it a bit) then that is great; but I never saw anything like that, and according to the quote you posted, what I said was correct. I will check it when I get a chance, but it will be awhile before I can do that and provide acurate data, give me a few hours (about to leave for what is preventing me from doing it now =/)
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  9. #29
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: Ardent Defender

    I dont get how this is hard to understand?

    < 35%, no matter how it happens, dmg is reduced by AD.

    ________= full dmg

    --------- = reduced dmg

    100%________50%________35%------15%----0%

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uryto/advanced

    If there's one thing I'm not, it's in control.

  10. #30

    Re: Ardent Defender

    For a revision history of AD before it hit live in 3.2 please see here:
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic
    and it's follow up:
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...ic&f=2&t=24421

    Since 3.2 the ONLY change to AD has been that the 30% reduction (Godlike) has been reduced to a 20% reduction (Very Good).

    EDIT: Leapfrogging was a Pre-3.2 issue. Keep up :
    Sanctity, level 90 Blood elf protection Paladin of <Fallout> on Tarren Mill EU

  11. #31

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Destruction Locks burst. Currently Destruction Locks have some of the highest burst in game.
    In order to achieve burst, Elemental shamans have to first spend a global on Flame Shock, which can be cleansed (and is often a priority), and then spend a few seconds on a Lava Burst.

    A destro lock has no need to do this. they can still get 12k+ crits from Chaos Bolt on other players if geared properly.
    not true.
    WL's have to spend 1,5seconds casting immolate, chaosbolt won't crit for 12k on players with resi, especially if they dont have immolate on them. Immolate doesn't only allow you to cast conflag, it also buffs the damage of incinerate and chaosbolt. If immolate is not on the target, chaosbolt hits for 1-2k less

  12. #32

    Re: Ardent Defender

    step 1: realize immolate has zero dispel protection
    step 2: realize you have a cleanse button
    step 3: cleanse said immolate
    step 4: ???
    step 5: profit and qq less

  13. #33
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin
    step 1: realize immolate has zero dispel protection
    step 2: realize you have a cleanse button
    step 3: cleanse said immolate
    step 4: ???
    step 5: profit and qq less
    You realize you can't pick and choose which debuffs to get rid of first, right?

  14. #34

    Re: Ardent Defender

    What other cleansable debuff does a destro lock put on you in a 1v1 scenario? I suppose he could put a corruption up, but you can get rid of it before the immolate gets up. If you know what you are doing.

  15. #35
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin
    What other cleansable debuff does a destro lock put on you in a 1v1 scenario? I suppose he could put a corruption up, but you can get rid of it before the immolate gets up. If you know what you are doing.
    In a 1v1 yes, but in any other situation no.

  16. #36
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin
    What other cleansable debuff does a destro lock put on you in a 1v1 scenario? I suppose he could put a corruption up, but you can get rid of it before the immolate gets up. If you know what you are doing.
    and if you had a healer following you none of it would matter any way.

    we could continually change the scenario to improve one side of the argument over the other, but the truth is that 1v1 is meaningless. In BGs/Arena you could have any number of cleansable debuffs on you before you even got to the immolate. Also, cleanse uses a GCD and if you're cleansing youre not attacking and blah blah blah.

    a chaos bolt, with immo up or a conflag both hit for a shit ton if nothing is done in between. we all know this. sometimes you can do something to stop the burst other times you're shit out of luck. good luck have fun.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uryto/advanced

    If there's one thing I'm not, it's in control.

  17. #37

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    In my eyes, this is quite unfair.

    Why do i say this? No, it's not just because i'm a Paladin, but also because of one other, rather large detail. Destruction Locks burst. Currently Destruction Locks have some of the highest burst in game. It's on par with the pre-nerf ret burst if i'm honest.

    They've yet to be brought in line ("Yo dawg, globalling someone is skillz"), and are one of the few specs that can take down almost anything without fear (despite being squishy if you can get in range). Let's compare to an Elemental Shaman.

    In order to achieve burst, Elemental shamans have to first spend a global on Flame Shock, which can be cleansed (and is often a priority), and then spend a few seconds on a Lava Burst.

    A destro lock has no need to do this. They're free to put on a few DoTs if they wish, yes, but they can still get 12k+ crits from Chaos Bolt on other players if geared properly. Had this been a Ret Pala, it'd have been nerfed in days. Yet here we are, a year later, with almost 0 change to the spell.

    /rant off.

    Others answered the question at hand though
    It's better for a Prot Paladin to go into PvP with PvE gear, since the avoidance you get nullifies melee a lot, and the extra HP you get (unless you've got access to the highest tier of arena gear that is) will serve you much better than a rather small amount of damage reduction (it's only once you get into the 1K+ resillience range that it's even noticable). A trinket is still an essential though
    WHAT THE F IS IMMOLATE? oh nvm
    Quote Originally Posted by MildCorma
    I found myself in a magical setup the other week and my damage dropped through the floor like a 90 year olds tits

  18. #38

    Re: Ardent Defender

    ^ You could whine about
    any attack that benefits greatly from cleansable debuffs on the target. However, only warlocks have an attack that is completely dependent on the presence of the pre-debuff to even be used. (conflag) You can still lava burst on non-flame shocked target, or scourge strike a diseaseless target. Is it efficient? No. But it does something.

    However my original post was directed at Chronalis, for the reason that Marithas has indicated.

  19. #39

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Ugh, once again, one person whining (Guess who this time?) has caused a non "Why is my DPS low" topic to turn into something completely different than the original topic. Is this why all the non-rets slowly stop posting or am I missing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
    I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
    Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

    There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
    And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

  20. #40

    Re: Ardent Defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Copain
    Ugh, once again, one person whining (Guess who this time?) has caused a non "Why is my DPS low" topic to turn into something completely different than the original topic. Is this why all the non-rets slowly stop posting or am I missing something?
    In this case I stopped poeting cos I'd made my point and the thread was on a new page, circling the drain. Generally I don't post here (pala forum) because the vast majority of post are ret related and have niether knowledge nor inclination to learn of such things
    Sanctity, level 90 Blood elf protection Paladin of <Fallout> on Tarren Mill EU

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