reti and tank

[Eurytos]

3 Tanks for Gormok? 1 wasted raid slot imo.

I wouldn't mind a more finely tuned set bonuses/equip stats than just dodge/hit and a very sub-par set bonus. I'm still kind of up in the air about our T10 4p bonus considering the reports of the massive amounts of magic damage in ICC.

ToGC we definately use 3. Normal 25 we only use 2. Our bear tank has upwards of 60k hp, and I've seen him die, from full to dead, in less than a second. the kind of stuff that blizz is trying to remove with Icewell Radiance, the massive spike dmg one shotting tanks.

[shetan]

That's interesting. In our ToGC 25 man, it's our DK tank and either our drood or myself tanking depending on if the drood is there. If he is, I'm dps'ing. We will take 4 stacks of impale before taunting and just bounce it between the 2 tanks. Both myself and the DK have over 53k hp raid buffed and our drood has 64k and never have we died to impale/spike dmg.

[Ronark]

It's very petty but Glyph of Consecration is an actual DPS gain for reasons other than reducing FCFS clashes. The only portion of Consecration that is resistable/can be missed is the very first tick. Without the glyph, 1 "missable" and 7 "non-missable" ticks. With the glyph, 1 "missable" and 9 "non-missable". You are reducing the number of times the "missable" tick appears by ~20%. Therefore, it is an actual DPS increase to use the glyph in addition to a clash reducer because no ret paladin should have enough hit rating to be spell hit-capped.

All ticks of Consecration have a change to miss and be resisted- Only the first is record in the Combat Log, all subsequent ones are not.

[Eurytos]

That's interesting. In our ToGC 25 man, it's our DK tank and either our drood or myself tanking depending on if the drood is there. If he is, I'm dps'ing. We will take 4 stacks of impale before taunting and just bounce it between the 2 tanks. Both myself and the DK have over 53k hp raid buffed and our drood has 64k and never have we died to impale/spike dmg.

I can assure you it has happened. I've seen our combat logs where Druid is at 100%, takes a melee hit and an impale within .7 seconds of each other and died. Its normally when Gormok has his highest stacks of Rising Anger, sometimes an additional stack because someone stood in fire with snobold and died.

However, we also use the tactic to have a third tank taunt Dreadscale(when mobile) after the current tank on him gets bile, so he can freely run around to remove toxin without dragging boss through the raid. It comes in handy when the Acidmaw(when stationary) tank gets toxin.

Though, I have heard of using a ranged tank on the stationary worm, we simply have never used that tactic. You know how it is when you do something one way and succeed, people are averse to changing...even if it may be better/easier.

[Prentice]

All ticks of Consecration have a change to miss and be resisted- Only the first is record in the Combat Log, all subsequent ones are not.

I would like to see this proven somewhere. Throughout all of TBC and, as far as I knew, WotLK, only the first tick could miss. You often have found this information reading somewhere and I would like to see where you are getting this from.

[Ronark]

I would like to see this proven somewhere. Throughout all of TBC and, as far as I knew, WotLK, only the first tick could miss. You often have found this information reading somewhere and I would like to see where you are getting this from.

Im do some testing here in a moment.

[Prentice]

Im do some testing here in a moment.

This is the excerpt taken directly from EJ regarding Consecration.

Consecration
Widely viewed as a necessary part of the retribution rotation, as our DPS is not very competitive without it. Should be used against both single and multiple targets. Consecration has some odd behavior on skull level mobs; the first tick can be fully resisted (miss) and subsequent ticks can also be partially resisted (due to mob level difference). You cannot work around the partial resists at all, but they are often small enough to not matter:

Originally Posted by http://elitistjerks.com/1052225-post672.html
I tested this situation while wearing a massive amount of + hit (22% spell hit or so) and things didn't change noticeably. There simply were only 4 combat log entries most of the time, something like:

Boss is afflicted by your Consecration
Boss takes 20 Damage from your Consecration (60 resisted)
Boss takes 30 Damage from your Consecration (50 resisted)
Consecration fades from Boss

Sometimes I got 4 ticks, sometimes 1, but against a +13 level mob I never got anywhere near 8. There simply weren't entries in the log for those other ticks. I won't claim to know the precise mechanics of this, but it does seem evident that mobs can totally resist Consecration ticks if they are high enough level in addition to the debuff application that we are all so familiar with. I don't actually have a paladin that can test this anymore since I did it just after 3.0 launched against the level 83 dummy and my level 80 paladin has no way to fight a level 93 mob.

This is how I understood Consecration to work. First tick was fully resistable. I didn't mention the partial resists of other ticks because the amount is usually very small. This kinda confirms the workings of the subsequent ticks as I believed. Partially resistable... yes. Fully resistable... no.

[shetan]

I can assure you it has happened. I've seen our combat logs where Druid is at 100%, takes a melee hit and an impale within .7 seconds of each other and died. Its normally when Gormok has his highest stacks of Rising Anger, sometimes an additional stack because someone stood in fire with snobold and died.

However, we also use the tactic to have a third tank taunt Dreadscale(when mobile) after the current tank on him gets bile, so he can freely run around to remove toxin without dragging boss through the raid. It comes in handy when the Acidmaw(when stationary) tank gets toxin.

Though, I have heard of using a ranged tank on the stationary worm, we simply have never used that tactic. You know how it is when you do something one way and succeed, people are averse to changing...even if it may be better/easier.

What works for one raid doesn't always work for another, very true and understandable. We still roll with 2 tanks all the way through ToGC 25 and the only time I've seen one of our tanks get gibbed is on FC when our DK has all the melee. If our Bile tank gets bile, our fire tank waits until spew, then darts over, frees the tank and we move on. Saying this isn't optimal is all fine and dandy, but considering we get to Anub with 50 attempts remaining, is proof that it works.

[Ronark]

This is the excerpt taken directly from EJ regarding Consecration.


This is how I understood Consecration to work. First tick was fully resistable. I didn't mention the partial resists of other ticks because the amount is usually very small. This kinda confirms the workings of the subsequent ticks as I believed. Partially resistable... yes. Fully resistable... no.

The fully resisted ticks still do not show in the combat log. Right now, I should be getting 10 ticks per cast, and sometimes I am only getting 5, 7, or 8 ticks per cast.

Those missing ticks either fail to land (miss), or are 100% resisted.

[Eurytos]

What works for one raid doesn't always work for another, very true and understandable. We still roll with 2 tanks all the way through ToGC 25 and the only time I've seen one of our tanks get gibbed is on FC when our DK has all the melee. If our Bile tank gets bile, our fire tank waits until spew, then darts over, frees the tank and we move on. Saying this isn't optimal is all fine and dandy, but considering we get to Anub with 50 attempts remaining, is proof that it works.

Oh, i didn't mean to insiuate your guilds tactic wasnt optimal, in fact it probably is better. I was just saying what we do and how it works well that I have 4pc bonus. We've only just recently killed Jar on ToGC.

[Prentice]

The fully resisted ticks still do not show in the combat log. Right now, I should be getting 10 ticks per cast, and sometimes I am only getting 5, 7, or 8 ticks per cast.

Those missing ticks either fail to land (miss), or are 100% resisted.

There is probably a totally logical reason for this. My instincts are telling me that your failures have something to do with you being a huge ugly spacegoat now. I could be wrong though. Just going with my gut on this one.

[Deleted]

Nice ol' MMO forum

4 pages of replies to the poor guy's query on specs and it's degenerated into a discussion about the ticks of consecration.

So I'll stick with what I said ealier

For tanking info for paladins: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/
For retribution info: http://www.retpaladin.com/ or a similar site.

Best advise I can give is just don't ever bother asking for help on MMO in regards to gameplay. The Trolls here breed like rabbits.

[Eurytos]

There is probably a totally logical reason for this. My instincts are telling me that your failures have something to do with you being a huge ugly spacegoat now. I could be wrong though. Just going with my gut on this one.

Says the Belf.

[The_swad]

To be fair it probably happened when he was a short fat dwarf as well ;D

P.s Ronark, love your work!

[shetan]

Best advise I can give is just don't ever bother asking for help on MMO in regards to gameplay. The Trolls here breed like rabbits.

Aye, maintankadin and EJ are much better for advice and proven theories.

[Ronark]

There is probably a totally logical reason for this. My instincts are telling me that your failures have something to do with you being a huge ugly spacegoat now. I could be wrong though. Just going with my gut on this one.

Actually, if anything I skewed by own results due to being a Draenei.

[Prentice]

Aye, maintankadin and EJ are much better for advice and proven theories.

Because a 51 page post on EJ about "why is my DPS lower than Rawr says it should be" is so much more effective than MMO??

When EJ failed to recognize the fault in 2T9, when frmorrison failed to create a real BiS list because people shouldn't be "greedy", and because of the overall shortcomings of the "theorycrafting" provided by many of the main posters, I only use EJ for a couple things now.

The Ret BiS lists are usually pretty accurate because of the dozens of people that take the time to correct frmorrison's laziness. He has even stated on EJ that he simply runs the Rawr optimize utility and calls it good enough.

I might come up with another question every now and then and go check there. Usually, I just give up because many of them have no idea what they're talking about or they just want to make people feel retarded like Zurm did when I posted Ronark's results from his PTR DPS test of 2T9. He was lookin real smart after that one.

[DaGhostDS]

Because a 51 page post on EJ about "why is my DPS lower than Rawr says it should be" is so much more effective than MMO??

When EJ failed to recognize the fault in 2T9, when frmorrison failed to create a real BiS list because people shouldn't be "greedy", and because of the overall shortcomings of the "theorycrafting" provided by many of the main posters, I only use EJ for a couple things now.

The Ret BiS lists are usually pretty accurate because of the dozens of people that take the time to correct frmorrison's laziness. He has even stated on EJ that he simply runs the Rawr optimize utility and calls it good enough.

I might come up with another question every now and then and go check there. Usually, I just give up because many of them have no idea what they're talking about or they just want to make people feel retarded like Zurm did when I posted Ronark's results from his PTR DPS test of 2T9. He was lookin real smart after that one.

ah youve seen the light at last..
/in before i didnt tell you that EJ werent gods