Boomkin Buff

[Deleted]

I think it's very annoying on Twins when I get an Eclipse and then they cast a vortex and I have to swap color, swap back, then put up dots and start over again. I've seen I there can go from top 3 on the dmg meter down to like 10th or lower.
And on like all the bosses in ToC you have to move sometime. But some other classes have the same problem.

Yes, we have to move - i never disagreed with that. My point was that it was largely not a problem.

You would, ofcourse, anticipate the risk of having to change color, so you position yourself close to the portal of the other color. And for the duration of being switched to the other color, you dps the correct target, if you have eclipse up. Then you can make your way over to change your color back.

if that is truly how he would've said it it would still, probably, be wrong since ilvl also increases stats like SP, spirit and int. all of which increases the dps of the moonkin (SP being the highest factor). so 10 versus 5 is indeed wrong then. to say: "at current and, most probably, future endgame gear we will not benefit from all the stats at an equal rate as a mage, haste and crit for example. these stats will only benefit one of the two main nukes as well as not increasing some of our other spells at all." would make me more pleased.
frankly, I don't think he put too much thought into the actual numbers given and that's what I was opposing. it doesn't help making changes to the devs previous decisions. next thing you know it we'll have a blue post about that specific number that someone saw on this forum and then posted in a major thread concerning the specs current whereabouts on the official forums claiming it's the whole truth.

however, if he does have math to back him up on the statement I'd actually love to see it. not only would we be able to point at facts to blizzard and thus have a bigger chance of actually changing the state of the spec but it also allows boomkins to shove it up the face of mages who troll about how much better they are than owls in equal gear.

Int and spirit are buffs to our damage, but not massive. After hit, we have three stats we go for: Spell power, haste and crit. Spellpower is not something you can "gear" for much, because that comes along on most items regardless. After that, we care only about crit and haste. You are not going to Icecrown, looking forward to all of the int and spirit you are getting on your gear, are you?

[Deleted]

I never use w/e and I'm still comparable even higher then sum of the druids that do

That's a stupid argument. From a normal rotation to Wise Eclipse, you will gain a few hundred dps. Comparing yourself to others with lower gear or whatever is irrelevant. And don't say that you can do the same without the addon or macro, it's simply not true (or you don't understand how it works which i don't think is the case).

[FourofaKind]

But I don't like it :P "Yes, I'm on top! Oh wait... Hunters....-.-" And we use 4 hunters in raid, bleh.
If we get something like that it doesn't have to be that OP if they really don't want us to top :P

Hunters are a pure dps class that provide little utility (in comparison to other DPS classes). The utility they provide seems to benefit themselves the most, seeing as you bring 4 hunters to raid (god I hope you arent talking 10 man...) if they aren't beating you on meters, they have some serious problems or you quite dramattically out gear them...

The eclipse buff is nice, it effectively overcompensates for the T8 nerf whilst still allowing gear upgradability. Now instead of 15% additional from your two pc, you will shoot out 17% more, and when you swap out that t8, instead of losing 15% (back to 30) you lose only 7% (up to 40%) making thinks like the spellpower/crit/haste from the higher gear sets much more attractive.

The problem of "well we move during eclipse in most fights" existed before this buff and will remain after this buff. To use such a mechanic as a reason why "this buff sucks" is inappropriate. Be happy we got a buff at all, and be informed that it was one of the better things they could have buffed (besides giving us 10% more damage overall, which would have been a bit overkill/drastic attempt to "fix" a broken class, which we arent. We are a hybrid that does our job well, we just need to bitch less when mages and hunters are beating us on meters and keep our god damn hands down when devs say things like Hybrid < Pure and we try to counter argue "Well, I'm better then any Pure I know". Its statements like this that makes Devs think hard about how effectively they want to "buff" us and if we are (god forbid) deserving of a nerf)

[Thalur]

What he is talking about is the place we are at with our caps. We are nearly (already?) soft crit capped, or pretty damn close to it, and we are all soft haste capped. This means that all crit we get will only benefit wrath, and all haste we get will only benefit starfire, whereas (say, back in Naxx), if you got haste at 350 haste, it would benefit both of your spells. Any crit would increase your damage even in lunar eclipse and would also benefit wrath. He is halfing the numbers because, to put it bluntly, each stat will only benefit a spell.

That's exactly the reason for this buff: missing scalability with end game equip. It's the same problem with resto, where you get virtually no improvement with more haste or crit. (So they introduced the haste rejuv glyph).
This buff does more than give back the dps taken by the (Wise) Eclipse change, and we need it because we don't benefit from the new items as much as other classes.
The change in T8 set bonus does not cost anything, as in 264 gear you wouldn't wear them anyway because 1) it's a dps loss due to the new items being so much better, and 2) we don't benefit from the additional crit for starfire anymore.

[Deleted]

(god I hope you arent talking 10 man...)

10 man druid run to TOTC this saturday! Two bears, two trees (may need a third), 3 cats and 3 turkeys. It's gonna be a blast!

[DaChicken]

Ok. Well stacking haste is not the answer so I disagree with that.

This buff is almost like for like to compensate for the t. 2pc nerf. That puts us in the same place! We are not getting buffed this patch!

On the other hand, lots of classes are getting straight up buffs in 3.3 and if anything we are still going to move (further) down the meters.

Blizzard HAD to do this because otherwise a lot of boomkins would just quit or reroll. It is still not enough and people will still quit the spec.

I also completely agree with Revasky that the spec should not be orientated too much around eclipse. Blizzard said that they brought eclipse in to make the rotation more interesting but, whilst it is definitely a buff to our dps, we are now so dependent on it that our dps crahes if it is not up all the time.

Blizzard is capable of changing more than one talent or increasing the base stats of spells or even giving us new talents and this is quite unimaginative.

I would be grateful to hear from Qieth once he has considered what our crit caps should be.

Stacking haste will be unavaoidable in T10.....just look at the t10 gear 600+ will be easy

[FourofaKind]

10 man druid run to TOTC this saturday! Two bears, two trees (may need a third), 3 cats and 3 turkeys. It's gonna be a blast!

Swap a DPS for Elesham to get blood lust. Shammies have ghostwolf. That makes them Druids in my book

[Deleted]

That's a stupid argument. From a normal rotation to Wise Eclipse, you will gain a few hundred dps. Comparing yourself to others with lower gear or whatever is irrelevant. And don't say that you can do the same without the addon or macro, it's simply not true (or you don't understand how it works which i don't think is the case).

I understand how it works completely I was comparing myself to people with similar and in some cases better gear and my numbers are on par with them like I've posted several times before if you don't care to look at this then pls don't start ranting and raging like a little child. Wise eclipse is only relevant IF RnG wants to let it be. So.... Long story short it's not actually a huge dps loss.. Please think about things beforehand , people not using it who were skilled enough were not actually at a disadvantage. All the mod was giving you is 1 extra GCD chance to proc eclipse every eclipse rotation which yes I agree can be very beneficial. But... If I'm hitting the same figures and sometimes more (sometimes less) then people with equal / better gear then clearly I wont be any worse off when it's fixed.

TLDR; don't assume things DJE it's childish and silly , if you assume I'm comparing myself to less gear'd people that would be stupid if you assume it things without thinking clearly you come off as silly. So please... don't be silly..

[Fonzey]

Wise eclipse is only relevant IF RnG wants to let it be. So.... Long story short it's not actually a huge dps loss.. Please think about things beforehand , people not using it who were skilled enough were not actually at a disadvantage. All the mod was giving you is 1 extra GCD chance to proc eclipse every eclipse rotation which yes I agree can be very beneficial

That's incorrect, what WiseEclipse did, was give you an XX% chance to daisychain Solar->Lunar, where XX=your Lunar Eclipsed Crit chance, which is at least 95% in decent gear, perhaps even 100% if you've got a few raid buffs on side (FM).

Without using WE, you're decreasing your chance to daisychain by 45% - That's significant.

What WiseEclipse does/did - cannot be replaced by just being skilled, unless you're manually cancelling Eclipse yourself - but that's just an inefficient alternative.

No matter how skilled you are, WE gives a flat buff to your DPS which cannot be gained by being a better player, better geared, whatever.

Last time I looked, EJ had modelled WE as a gain of approximately 300DPS.

If you played fine without it, good for you - but you were not meeting your characters potential.

tatienne :

I must apologise for wording my opinion about gear scaling next patch, saying we gain half the benefit from gear is inaccurate - How I should have said it was:

For every 10 item budget levels (of crit and / or haste) a mage gains, we only gain the effect of 5.

[Deleted]

I might be somewhat dry in how i word things but i'm not nerdraging (to be honest that corresponds more to your post since you've actually proved that you didn't understand what you were talking about, and it's not the first time). I'm just correcting you here.

I told you : it's not a matter of comparing yourself to others who use WE, it's a matter of what WE would bring to yourself. And those gains are easy to get and provable, and do amount to several hundred dps if you are able to adapt your rotation.

Fonzey already explained it but i'll try to be even more explicit :
Without WE (let's say we are in the spam wrath step to proc lunar) :
- spam wrath, get lunar proc
- cast 2 wraths in the lunar (reaction time) and switch to SF
- spam SF until lunar ends
- spam SF until solar procs
- cast 1 SF into solar (reaction time) and switch to wrath
- spam wrath until solar ends

With WE :
- spam wrath, get lunar proc
- cast 2 wraths in the lunar (reaction time) and switch to SF
- spam SF until lunar ends
- cast wrath after the last SF that benefits from lunar, since solar is garanteed to proc (or almost depending on your lunar SF crit rate)
- spam wrath until solar ends

Differences :
- you totally eliminated eclipse down time between lunar and solar
- you avoided casting 1 SF into solar and were able to cast 2 wraths instead
ie more dps through more eclipse downtime and more dps through actually making maximal use of solar.
The first effect cannot be replicated without WE (except when you're really lucky having your last SF hit at 0s left on lunar). The second one could be but is a losing gamble because even with a 55%+ SF crit chance you'll often find yourself not having procced solar and having to switch back to SF effectively wasting time to proc Eclipse.

[FourofaKind]

Last time I looked, EJ had modelled WE as a gain of approximately 300DPS.

If you played fine without it, good for you - but you were not meeting your characters potential.

or you were well versed in XML and/or Macro creation and didn't need to use a resource whoring addon to do what any true high level player should already know how to do.

If you play fine without knowing XML/Macroscript, good for you - but you are not meeting your personal potential.

[Deleted]

Resource whoring ? What's that ?

No need to be well versed, the macro was initially developped on EJ (and perhaps somewhere else, i'm not going to claim exclusivity for EJ) and then gave rise to the addon so both choices were open to that population.

Anyway, to address your real point :
- there's a difference between an addon that makes you gain 300 dps with security and a macro that makes you gain 305 dps with 20% more attention required (numbers are invented). I'd generally take the former one (though my performance is already not at 100% because of raid leading and i can't dedicate that more brain time to my rotation :/)
- there's a difference between avoiding something that makes you gain 300 dps (ie playing with or without WE) and avoiding something that makes you gain 5 dps (ie unloading addons to gain 0.002 latency and 500kb of RAM)

I personally won't judge players for any choice they make regarding this, but i do consider it somewhat silly to compare the dps increase of non-WE -> WE and addon WE -> macro'd WE.

[Fonzey]

or you were well versed in XML and/or Macro creation and didn't need to use a resource whoring addon to do what any true high level player should already know how to do.

If you play fine without knowing XML/Macroscript, good for you - but you are not meeting your personal potential.

I was using a macro to do it for me quite a few weeks before the WE addon was released and mainstream - but I switched to WE because I've got enough macros as it is, so clearing up space is never a bad thing - and I've got more memory to throw at addons than I know what to do with

edit:

There was an 'intelligent' macro which I had been using for a few weeks prior to WE being put together, something like:

#showtooltip Starfire
/run local _,_,_,_,_,_,a = UnitBuff("player","Eclipse");local _,_,_,_,_,_,b = GetSpellInfo(48465);if a then if a-GetTime() < b/1000 then CancelUnitBuff("player","Eclipse") end end;
/cast Starfire


It's this macro what formed the basis of WE though - but it did the job just as well before the addon was 'mainstream' so to speak.

[FourofaKind]

so clearing up space is never a bad thing - and I've got more memory to throw at addons than I know what to do with

You can always use the extra memory to fraps your day to day encounters. I lurve my captains log, you never know when you might vid-capture something truly magestic (or hilarious, im currently compiling a video to put on youtube showing the many instances of Fel Reaver "book it" bugs. If you've ever seen one of those big guys dash across the entirety of Hellfire Peninsula in under 20 seconds, you'll know what I mean.)

Anywho, the change to Eclipse that makes the spell preform as intended doesnt really seem like a "nerf" to me anywho. But thats just my opinion on it

[Fonzey]

Anywho, the change to Eclipse that makes the spell preform as intended doesnt really seem like a "nerf" to me anywho. But thats just my opinion on it

Agreed entirely, if there is an option which will give my character and raid more DPS - then i'll take it, but the 'fix' to WE was ALWAYS going to happen, it was just a case of enjoying it whilst it lasted.

It seems though that Blizzard were happy with the DPS we were doing, even with WE - but they weren't happy with the way in which we obtained it. (noone should have to rely on a macro or addon to do their characters maximum potential - addons and macro's should be for convenience and aesthetics, not necessities!) so I fully support what they've done; even moreso now that we've got a bit of a buff to compensate

[lostdrewid]

Meh, bandaid fixes seem best for t10, talent trees will be remade with cata.

I concur. People are saying that Eclipse isn't the place to fix our DPS, and while I agree with that, they're compensating us - as promised; blues mentioned this last week - for the loss of WE and 2T8. It was Eclipse that took a beating and so it is Eclipse that is being propped back up.

Next expansion, it's my sincere hope that we see something truly new. A replacement to Wrath seems likely, but I'm willing to play the wait and see game here.

[Garnik]

Why does people think this is a nerf?
I have hoped they would somewhat nerf or change the tier 8 set bonus, so i can get some of the better stats on the tier 9 gear.
And more damage on Eclipse=Awesome, but still people find ways too bitch about it.
And the tier 10 bonuses are awesome! I find that i proc OoC pretty often, and i also find my Wrath and Starfire too crit pretty often too, so i find the 4 piece bonus amazing!

[ElAmigo]

i stand by on a thread that i made long time ago that would have probably fixed the rng for eclipse and that is that wrath has a 100% chance to proc lunar eclipse(except for when its on cd of course) and starfire has a 100% chance to proc solar eclipse. that way when you are doing back to back eclipses you dont have to rely on crit to hope that your next spell will have it proc. therefore we would pretty much have a solid rotation.

[FourofaKind]

i stand by on a thread that i made long time ago that would have probably fixed the rng for eclipse and that is that wrath has a 100% chance to proc lunar eclipse(except for when its on cd of course) and starfire has a 100% chance to proc solar eclipse. that way when you are doing back to back eclipses you dont have to rely on crit to hope that your next spell will have it proc. therefore we would pretty much have a solid rotation.

I think the major point is that there is no need to fix the RNG of eclipse as RNG is a major balancing factor of our classes DPS. More so, fix the scaleablity of our dps as a whole (including RNG of 1:1 and 3:5) and giving it a 10% boost helps alot. (especially Solar scalibility)

[Boomkindance]

bottom line is, we got a christmas present worth about 4% more damage, compensating for eww ulduar gear.

We should be happy.

Lets stop crying that we got a sweater instead of a toy car for christmas please.