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  1. #1

    Question Having trouble with arcane stat weights

    I am looking up on a lot of different locations for arcane mages and getting a lot of confusing results.

    I am reading on a lot of places that Mastery beats out haste for the top spot at all times, but on other spots, it's saying that haste beats out mastery with 2 piece:

    Int: 9.2
    SP: 8.25
    Haste: 7.09
    Mast: 6.61
    Multi: 6.45
    Crit: 6.06
    Vers: 5.51

    So my question is is which is correct? I would assume its actually the haste because it's supplying me hard numbers, however, numbers can easily be made up and there are a lot of poor simcrafters out there (myself included). I've also read that mastery is better than haste, but only after 2100 haste. Is this because of specific breakpoints after raid buffs/food buffs, or would this be 2100 including food?

  2. #2
    Immortal tobindax's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt simcraft is wrong. At least make sure the fight type is correct or near reality. That 2100 thing is misunderstood since it was taken as gospel while it was only part of theorycrafting done for the T18 bonuses and it is not a hard cap or even a goal.

  3. #3
    Even with the prophecy of fear trinket?

  4. #4
    the pof trinket's damage proc doomnova scales afaik also directly with arcane's mastery and thus your unspent mana levels. I think that is what your follow-up question is aiming at. the -"easy to understand"- theory what makes haste potentially strong(er) - (simcraft should tell you that or logs of succesful players*, I guess) is that more 2set heroes due to more haste also increase your damage multiplicatively (4set). it follows mastery should have a higher high-end damage if all stars align as you could also get all heroes up at the same time and/or back to back during your burst without significant inherent/on-gear haste levels. therefore you might go for mastery in hope of that magic pull. also many fights are getting very very short and heroism/arcane power(class trinket) takes up alot of the time already.

    PS: stalking high-end mages yields on-gear haste levels from 1700-2300. so apparently all that works well.

    *here defined as who can best whore dps charts.
    Last edited by Deiae; 2016-01-03 at 07:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Immortal tobindax's Avatar
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    It's generally another case that intuition alone can't give a solution. Heroes, stats, mastery, etc. are too complex to just guess without full simulation or full global formulation. I start becoming very conscious that some players that sound convincing only look at very partial formulation (like "the trinket gives strong arcane blasts so ignore AMs") and that makes a lot of mages look at trees and not the forest.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sp33dzer0 View Post
    I am looking up on a lot of different locations for arcane mages and getting a lot of confusing results.

    I am reading on a lot of places that Mastery beats out haste for the top spot at all times, but on other spots, it's saying that haste beats out mastery with 2 piece:

    Int: 9.2
    SP: 8.25
    Haste: 7.09
    Mast: 6.61
    Multi: 6.45
    Crit: 6.06
    Vers: 5.51

    So my question is is which is correct? I would assume its actually the haste because it's supplying me hard numbers, however, numbers can easily be made up and there are a lot of poor simcrafters out there (myself included). I've also read that mastery is better than haste, but only after 2100 haste. Is this because of specific breakpoints after raid buffs/food buffs, or would this be 2100 including food?
    Both are correct, but that depends entirely on what your gear sits at now.
    Haste easily beats Mastery to start with while you gain the extra pet attack then they start to level peg, and finally Mastery takes over. The problem is these crossovers aren't set in stone everything you see is approximate.
    Also when Mastery does finally overtake Haste it's usually tiny amounts better.

    With them stat weights posted I suspect your Haste is currently quite low.
    Last edited by Zelendria; 2016-01-04 at 09:57 AM.

  7. #7
    Blademaster
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    You're looking for the initial haste breakpoint. With your two set you are looking to obtain 1300 haste. Once you have your four set and class trinket, you should be aiming for 2100-2600 and switch to Unstable Magic for almost every fight (with the exception of Xhul and maybe Manno). Gem and enchant haste too, if you need to hit those numbers.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco89 View Post
    You're looking for the initial haste breakpoint. With your two set you are looking to obtain 1300 haste. Once you have your four set and class trinket, you should be aiming for 2100-2600 and switch to Unstable Magic for almost every fight (with the exception of Xhul and maybe Manno). Gem and enchant haste too, if you need to hit those numbers.
    Such a wide range of haste.

  9. #9
    Immortal tobindax's Avatar
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    ^I've given up myself believing forums Frost1129 :> I'm only going by simcraft. I just wish I could undestand the APLs faster because even with the explanation threads it's hard:P

  10. #10
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    Not going to get very far if you are using SimC alone to investigate haste and arcane.

    Well. Unless you plan on figuring out pet delay and implimenting it. Then you could

  11. #11
    Immortal tobindax's Avatar
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    I appreciate the skill of the people that do good formulation but I'm used to them seeing a discrepancy in simulations and then backtracking admitting they didn't see the big picture. And that's if we're lucky. Most of the time it's a random forum user saying something simplistic like "trinket has bigger arcane blasts, stop using arcane missiles forever".

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    Not quite sure how that connects?

  13. #13
    Blademaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Such a wide range of haste.
    Depends on how many extra auto attacks you think you can aim for on your set bonus. Also depends if you want to go full haste build, instead of mastery + class trinket.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco89 View Post
    Depends on how many extra auto attacks you think you can aim for on your set bonus. Also depends if you want to go full haste build, instead of mastery + class trinket.
    Wouldn't the # of pet attacks be strictly determined by their attack speed and haste?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Wouldn't the # of pet attacks be strictly determined by their attack speed and haste?
    No, this is where haste comes into play. The number of pet attacks is determined by the Mage's haste, hence the need for breakpoints. There is an incredibly detailed chart of haste breakpoints, and the additional attacks each of the four pets do, on the AT forums. Having trouble finding it atm.

  16. #16
    Immortal tobindax's Avatar
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    Again, why are you deciding on your final haste value based on that? It's not so simple. You have to either do a full formulation or a full simulation, you can't just formulate on the pets and decide entirely for what haste to go since simply mastery or another stat may be higher.

    Hell, I think I've even seen Multistrike or Crit higher in some cases.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    "Full simulation"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    "Full simulation"?

    A program without bugs with a script that is close to reality. I guess the basic program is pretty good at this point. And your script doesn't look bad.

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    A program without bugs with a script that is close to reality. I guess the basic program is pretty good at this point. And your script doesn't look bad.
    This is a pretty vague statement. What exactly can be improved upon?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    This is a pretty vague statement. What exactly can be improved upon?
    It wasn't sarcastic or cryptic. I wouldn't know if it has issues. I currently treat it as perfect.

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