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  1. #1

    Stubborn fire mage alt seeks opinions

    So I have a 703 ish fire mage with 740 ish ring.

    While I don't expect to top any single target fights, I'd like to do better with my choice of talents - I simply find them more fun than prismatic crystal etc.

    So is there any advice to even offer to me to improve my single target dps using kindling living bomb and mirror image?

    Many thanks in advance to any insights people can offer.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    I mean, your choice of talents is quite sub-optimal. Not having PC is bad, not using Blast Wave on ST is bad as well, etc (Living Bomb shouldn't even be cast on a single target). Aside from that, unless you show us logs, all I can really suggest is working on the basic Fire rotation if you're not comfortable with that already.

    Fire is a top ST spec at higher gear levels, so you can definitely work towards that if you continue gearing your mage.

  3. #3
    Wow thanks for the fast reply khi. I realise pc is best but I really don't find it fun this is just an alt so don't need to worry to much about being optimal (or even good lol) just want to have fun spreading dots

    I've actually stopped casting lb on single targets lol not much excuse for me to not switch to blast wave for those few fights.

    I miss brf 2pc bonus

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dkwhyevernot View Post
    I miss brf 2pc bonus
    If you don't care about being optimal, then why not just use it?

  6. #6
    Barely seems worth it as it was nerfed.

    Ta for the link to bin will have a read of it now.

  7. #7
    at lower gear levels i found PC to be very frustrating too and unless i got lucky, pretty lackluster and wasted, i prefered kindling, But once you start to rack up a good amount of crit and mastery, PC becomes a lot more fun. reliable being able to spam 3+pyros for a 40k+ ignite spreading, then double BW and DB is a lot of fun.
    Whats more fun is seeing those Frost and Arcane mages cry when you wipe the floor with them after they ridiculed you for being Fire (Yes it does happen)

  8. #8
    Agzarah - its not that i find PC frustrating - its just that i find it a very very shit and un-fun mechanic. If my mage was my main i'd just have to use it for progress etc. Luckily its not though, so i can avoid it. Its pretty hateful to use TBH

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dkwhyevernot View Post
    Agzarah - its not that i find PC frustrating - its just that i find it a very very shit and un-fun mechanic. If my mage was my main i'd just have to use it for progress etc. Luckily its not though, so i can avoid it. Its pretty hateful to use TBH
    You hate PC in general or the PC+fire combo (that you have to build Ignite on PC and then Combust on it)? If it is the latter case then simply buy and upgrade (6/6 + 10ilvl from the 2x Valor upgrade) a Sandman's Pouch; that trinket has a 2 min inner cooldown so all you have to do is to track its proc with a WA or TMW icon, delay PC+Comb 30 secs and use PC while that bonus crit from Sandman's Pouch is up. With that 3000 bonus crit one can almost always land FB+inst Pyro + 3x inst Pyro combo onto the PC so a high Ignite is guaranteed. After the combo one Combusts on PC then copies it back to the boss with Inferno Blast (Combustion will reset its CD). After doing this (longer combo if hero is up: fb+inst pyro; fb+inst pyro; 3x inst Pyro) simply Blast Wave x2 and Dragon's Breath (x2 with the talent), then back to the boss.

    Your other option is to get the Bonemaw's Big Toe trinket from mythic SMBG (note that it's a strength trinket, so master looter or group loot needed to get it as a mage). Go for warforged version (705-725) and upgrade it twice with valor points. Since it is a per use trinket with 1,5 CD you can easily line it up with PC and do the same combo that i just mentioned with Sandman's Pouch.

    As 2nd trinket use Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia or Orb of Voidsight (better than HC DSI, but worse than mythic DSI) or Iron Reaver Piston if your base crit is really low and no Orb yet; Kazzak's Chipped Soul Prism is also a good option if you still don't have the heirloom.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dkwhyevernot View Post
    Agzarah - its not that i find PC frustrating - its just that i find it a very very shit and un-fun mechanic. If my mage was my main i'd just have to use it for progress etc. Luckily its not though, so i can avoid it. Its pretty hateful to use TBH
    Personally I don't like or use PC, I use Kindling. I don't raid Mythic anymore just Heroic, but I run Fire 100% of the time on all fights. I may not be number 1 on single target fights like Iron Reaver, but I am still very competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    Here is what I use.

    Hellfire Assault
    Talents – Greater In., LB, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Inf.Bl
    No Combustion Glyph – adds die to quick

    Iron Reaver
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Combustion

    Kormrok
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Combustion
    Drag.Br + BW works well on hands.

    Kilrogg Deadeye
    Talents –Cold Snap, BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Ignite, Combustion
    Ice Block prevents the Heart Seeker Debuff, Cold Snap gives 2 Ice Blocks.
    Evanesce works really nice too. It also blocks the debuff, with a 45sec CD.
    Ignite Glyph to slow adds if needed

    High Council
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag. Br., Combustion

    Gorefiend
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Ignite, Combustion
    Ignite Glyph to slow adds
    Blink out of Touch of Doom

    Shadow-lord Iskar
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Drag.Br, Inferno Bl., Combustion

    Socrethar the Eternal
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Drag.Br, Inferno Bl., Combustion

    Tyrant Velhari
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Drag.Br, Inferno Bl., Combustion

    Fel Lord Zakuun
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Drag.Br, Inferno Bl., Combustion

    Xhul’horac
    Talents – Greater In., LB, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Inf.Bl
    Unglyphed Combustion for adds
    Evanesce works really nice for taking out fire puddles.

    Mannoroth
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Combustion

    Archimonde
    Talents – Greater In., BW, IF, Kind.
    Glyphs – Rapid D, Drag.Br, Combustion

  11. #11
    Lovassy - i really appreciate all that info - but the reason i won't use PC is not because i don't understand how to use it - just that using it feels extremely clunky and 'not fun' to use, while the idea/lore/theme of hitting some arbitrarily summoned target to spread dots from it is just lame. These are just my opinions on fun etc - if people do like the play style then all power to them.

    I'm not doing mythic progress, so i can live with worse than optimal dps because i like the lb+spread dots playstyle.

    Zuul - about to raid on my main but will have a look through what you've listed looks interesting thank you

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    Personally I don't like or use PC, I use Kindling. I don't raid Mythic anymore just Heroic, but I run Fire 100% of the time on all fights. I may not be number 1 on single target fights like Iron Reaver, but I am still very competitive.
    PC+ring+Combustion is fire's main dmg combo, playing without that is possible but only if other dps players can carry your weight or one is raiding overgeared content. Kindling is so bad since it is an anti-combo with both the ring and 6/6 SP; Meteor is weak compared to PC but still combos with ring (helps building Ignite). Lowering Combustion's cooldown that you optimally use every 2 mins with ring+SP proc is a non-sense thing, even not taking a lvl100 talent but lining up CDs with ring seems a better decision than playing with Kindling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dkwhyevernot View Post
    Lovassy - i really appreciate all that info - but the reason i won't use PC is not because i don't understand how to use it - just that using it feels extremely clunky and 'not fun' to use, while the idea/lore/theme of hitting some arbitrarily summoned target to spread dots from it is just lame. These are just my opinions on fun etc - if people do like the play style then all power to them.

    I'm not doing mythic progress, so i can live with worse than optimal dps because i like the lb+spread dots playstyle.

    Zuul - about to raid on my main but will have a look through what you've listed looks interesting thank you
    Ok, i can understand that you don't want to use PC, especially if you play with pick up group tanks. So my suggestion is the following: take Meteor and make sure you always save one for ring. Wait 6/6 SP proc (every 2 mins), build a high Ignite with Fb+Pyro, Meteor, Fp+pyro, 3xPyro (maybe it's just fb+pyro, meteor, +3x pyro; you have to check it in Dutchmagoz' or the other guy's fire guide here), Combust, 2x BW, (2x if talented) Dragon's Breath - use this combo every 2 mins with ring + 6/6 SP proc. You won't reach your maximal potential but will be able to pull decent dps. IMO never take Kindling since that is an anti-combo with 6/6SP and ring.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovassy View Post
    PC+ring+Combustion is fire's main dmg combo, playing without that is possible but only if other dps players can carry your weight or one is raiding overgeared content. Kindling is so bad since it is an anti-combo with both the ring and 6/6 SP; Meteor is weak compared to PC but still combos with ring (helps building Ignite). Lowering Combustion's cooldown that you optimally use every 2 mins with ring+SP proc is a non-sense thing, even not taking a lvl100 talent but lining up CDs with ring seems a better decision than playing with Kindling.
    Lovassy, I think we have had this conversation before, you are obviously a PC lover and that it fine, but please don't bash me or anyone else that chooses not to use it. Kindling is a solid talent and IMO far better than Meteor, and way more fun to use than PC. Suggesting that anyone that uses anything other than PC is being carried is spreading Misinformation. Is PC better statistically than the other 2? Yes... Is it so much better that you completely suck if you don't use it? No..

    To each their own, you can continue to use PC and I applaud you for it, but please don't bash others for not sharing your opinions.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    Lovassy, I think we have had this conversation before, you are obviously a PC lover and that it fine, but please don't bash me or anyone else that chooses not to use it. Kindling is a solid talent and IMO far better than Meteor, and way more fun to use than PC. Suggesting that anyone that uses anything other than PC is being carried is spreading Misinformation. Is PC better statistically than the other 2? Yes... Is it so much better that you completely suck if you don't use it? No..

    To each their own, you can continue to use PC and I applaud you for it, but please don't bash others for not sharing your opinions.
    Just sim your char: using Kindling (and messing up the ring+trinket proc Ignite building+Combustion combo) results minus dps. Kindling is so bad that it will produce lower overall dmg; so even NOT taking any lvl100 talent is a better option than picking Kindling. (Picking Kindling and waiting for ring+SP proc is technically the same as not taking a lvl100 talent, so Meteor competes with PC or non-100 talented builds).

    And yes, we had a conversation on this; also everyone (on AT) told you that your talent suggestions results minus dps... and to not to advice them to new players... The OP asked an advice how he could improve his dps without PC (or with Kindling). The anwser is obvious: use Meteor OR if Meteor is on banlist too, don't use a lvl 100 talent at all. "So is there any advice to even offer to me to improve my single target dps using kindling living bomb and mirror image?" - the only anwser is: do not use/ignore Kindling and (as Khiyone told him) do not use LB on ST. So one can imporve its dmg with those 3 talents by not using LB on ST fights (not even during ST phases on AOE/cleave fights) and by ignoring Kindling on any fights. That's all, anyone else that suggests any different advices is misleading the OP.

    And don't forget that we have very different experiences/skills with the gives specs; as i linked you previously i was Silvermoon's (best alliance PVE EU realm) 8th highest ranked fire mage on wlogs back in BRF - just noting that during that tier fire was the to go spec. So you can argue and link your OPINION but without SIMS or legendary ranked WLOGS it is just an OPINION. And an OPINION cannot compete against FACTS supported by sims and logs. So you might think that our advices are equal, but they are not. Arguing against someone with multiply top10 BRF fire logs (not brackets but world top10) is ok, since no wow player is perfect, everyone can learn; but doing that without sims or logs with ideas that totally go against the common sense will only make you ridiculus.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Vorrum's Avatar
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    You shouldn't expect people not to bash you if you are clearly saying you like being non-optimal. I'm fire at the moment and raiding mythic, and it is necessary to run crystal to get a huge combustion. (Wait 2 mins for ICD of pouch, 3 pyros into crystal, combust, spread combust, double dragons breath, double blast wave.) This makes it so you really never change your abilities.

    Its simply a fact that mages that don't run RoP or PC are lazy, and being as vocal as they are would rather see us all dragged down with them in legion than improve.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    Lovassy, I think we have had this conversation before, you are obviously a PC lover and that it fine, but please don't bash me or anyone else that chooses not to use it. Kindling is a solid talent and IMO far better than Meteor, and way more fun to use than PC. Suggesting that anyone that uses anything other than PC is being carried is spreading Misinformation. Is PC better statistically than the other 2? Yes... Is it so much better that you completely suck if you don't use it? No..

    To each their own, you can continue to use PC and I applaud you for it, but please don't bash others for not sharing your opinions.
    Passives are the epitome of not fun. Meteor is the most fun talent in that tier

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorrum View Post
    You shouldn't expect people not to bash you if you are clearly saying you like being non-optimal. I'm fire at the moment and raiding mythic, and it is necessary to run crystal to get a huge combustion. (Wait 2 mins for ICD of pouch, 3 pyros into crystal, combust, spread combust, double dragons breath, double blast wave.) This makes it so you really never change your abilities.

    Its simply a fact that mages that don't run RoP or PC are lazy, and being as vocal as they are would rather see us all dragged down with them in legion than improve.
    The OP has a mage ALT, and will never raid mythic from that char, all he wants is having fun with his fire mage in LFR/normal, maybe hc HFC. He hates PC so asked a viable but PC-free build. Meteor or no 100 talent builds are both result better damage than his current one. I can't understand why people can't accept that someone just wants to play an ALT in yolo mode. Just help him and try not to force the "to go" spec on him. He obviously asked for an alternative build since the guide pages only mention the "to go" ones.
    Last edited by Lovassy; 2015-12-29 at 10:39 PM.

  18. #18
    I never posted at AT so not sure where that is coming from. And Vorrum, Optimal? You obviously didn't read the post and just decided to climb out from under your rock and bash to make yourself feel important.. If you feel passives are not fun, bully for you, but your opinion is not the only one that matters, and not the correct one for everyone else. Oh, and PC is so good and popular that they are keeping it in Legion too... Oh wait they aren't because it sucks and is not fun to use. At least they are changing ROP to make it less suck.. But whatever...

    DKwhatevernot - play what you want, have fun, after all this is just a game!!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorrum View Post
    Its simply a fact that mages that don't run RoP are lazy
    possibly the least factual fact i've ever seen posted on this site

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    If you feel passives are not fun, bully for you, but your opinion is not the only one that matters, and not the correct one for everyone else
    when kindling + crafted trinket + legendary ring is literally a dps loss over no lvl 100 talent selected, its not really opinion anymore is it? lol
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2015-12-29 at 11:47 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
    I never posted at AT so not sure where that is coming from. And Vorrum, Optimal? You obviously didn't read the post and just decided to climb out from under your rock and bash to make yourself feel important.. If you feel passives are not fun, bully for you, but your opinion is not the only one that matters, and not the correct one for everyone else. Oh, and PC is so good and popular that they are keeping it in Legion too... Oh wait they aren't because it sucks and is not fun to use. At least they are changing ROP to make it less suck.. But whatever...

    DKwhatevernot - play what you want, have fun, after all this is just a game!!
    Ok, then it was someone else (never thought there are two different propagators of Kindling only HFC boss lists )

    PC was not removed because of its player feedback but because it was unoptimal in pug groups due to communication issues. In an organized raid PC is so much fun to play, but i can accept that Blizzard doesn't wan't abilities that make a player's performance so much dependent on another's.

    Same with RoP, there's been nothing to do with its player feedback, that ability was simply in a too niche situation so it was taken for very few fights. With its rework RoP has no disadvantage left over IF.

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